Skill Points for Transformations

Quote from BlazingBarrager

The goal in mind was to make SSJ, Pure Majin, and Great Namek equal in power and, to some extent, usage to Kaio-Ken at 3 SP, not flat out replace the skill. This is why I felt CD shouldn't change since it would result in people spamming the hell out of the forms and ignore using Kaio-Ken. It also maintains the balance to these forms since they give better boosts than Kaio-Ken. Now granted Kaio-Ken can and should be used if you need a quick power and crit boost for, say, powerful bosses or being able to heal/buff without losing power while the transformations should be more towards needing a longer power boost duration for long dungeons and TMQ. Both forms can be useful in PvP as well if you really need that extra kick (like in later fights in Budokai for example).

lol Fair enough I suppose.

Then why would my turtle use Super saiyan if Kaioken is just better for him. Remember that transformations have a huge cooldown, should that be changed too? I always thought transformations at huge cooldown should be very strong for its duration ( I giving super saiyans a time limite like the other transformations have).

Quote from BlazingBarrager

Kaio-Ken is more of a quick power up that you need for like handling a boss or something. Transformations offer a more effective power-up that can be used in more situations for longer duration...well SSJ and Pure Majin anyway. Great Namek is like Kaio-Ken due to it being temporary, but the huge stat boosts make up for it. Remember that using Kaio-Ken for long periods of time should only be done if you have a healer around you. Also worth noting that the transformations' CD starts after you use it so the 1 hour CD starts ticking immediately. Kaio-Ken's CD only starts after the skill deactivates. There's also the usage of CD gear to lower CD so that benefits transformations as well.

Awesome, but thats not how DBO works.

Here are the current stats for transformations

Kaio-ken
15% increase in atk power
infinite increase to crit rate
Very low cooldown
Lasts as long as you can mantain
Easy to mantain

Transformations
10% increase in atk power
Accuracy and dodge rate increase
Attack speed increase
Lasts 30 minutes ( except super saiyan)
1 hour cooldown

Kaio-ken isnt a quick power up for turtles, its a definitive power up for them. Unless I am going for the attack speed road I'd never even touch super saiyan. That goes for fighters and swords too. Transformations in DBO were never effective as power ups , they were used to boost attack speed and only. And even saying that, the transformations itself weren't used but rather transformation pots which had a higher stat increase
Also Majin transformations also have a duration , only super saiyans can last forever and heck its a crappy transformation compared to the stats provided by kaio-ken.

Only way my turtle would consider investing SP into super sayian instead of kaioken were if the stats would be much higher ( like a 25 % increase in damage) and if it would reduce the cooldown of my skills so I could use them more often. Giving up the increased crit rate in DBo is quite a big deal ( remember , in DBO a crit hits 4 times stronger then the normal hit).

Quote

Oh, and Pure Majin doesn't have a time limit. It ends when you run out
of EP just like SSJ. You just generally see Buffers exit out of the form
to redo their buffs to their teammates.

oh yeah, I forgot that. I used mostly transformation pots which had more stats.

I hate how DBO at 70 patch did everything for attack speed. Attack speed is the dumbest thing DBO ever did and I am afraid that increasing super saiyan stats is only going to enforce that even more. I see skill cooldown reduction as a way to also incorporate other builds into the lv 70 patch.
Also I believe instead of dranning EP , ssj and kid boo should just have time limits as well. That Way kaioken remains usefull.

Quote from BlazingBarrager

No. With each point for Pure Majin, SSJ and Great Namek you get a slight increase in the stat boosts and less drain for SSJ and Pure Majin. The time limit for Great Nameks will also increase (12 min at 2 SP and 15 at 3 SP). SSJ's double EP and attack speed buff as well as Great Namek's Dodge debuff stay the same (does Pure Majin also do double EP?). At 3 SP SSJ and Pure Majin's attack stats (possibly Great Namek as well, but I don't know their boosts) would be equal to Kaio-Ken at 3 SP. The stat boosts affected are only the ones applied to what increase for the skill transformation, and they won't be as powerful as the transformation pots.

hmm but then I think we run into another problem with the pots. If pots remain stronger then the actual transformations even after spending sp on it, people would just use the potions. Also the stat increase pots had weren't that huge I think it was a 5% atk boost from the actual transformations.
With that in mind, it was as strong as kaioken with 3 SP on it. So even spending SP transformations would still have less stats then kaioken.

Quote from Sabin

hmm but then I think we run into another problem with the pots. If pots remain stronger then the actual transformations even after spending sp on it, people would just use the potions. Also the stat increase pots had weren't that huge I think it was a 5% atk boost from the actual transformations.
With that in mind, it was as strong as kaioken with 3 SP on it. So even spending SP transformations would still have less stats then kaioken.

8)transformation pots were way stronger the using kaio-ken.

Quote from BlazingBarrager

No I'm pretty sure Pot gave higher attack. It also buffed your defenses by a large margin and came with no drain whatsoever. Great Namek also had the benefit of lasting 30 minutes. But seriously I doubt transformation pots will be easy to come by so putting SP into transformations would be a more viable option. Besides I said the attack stats would match Kaio-Ken at 3 SP. This isn't the old DBO after all.

Still, that one hour cooldown is going to be a pain. I mean, sure for pve you can have it as long as you want, but for pvp that cooldown counts.
Investing 2 SP ( which some classes dont have any to spare) for a one hour cooldown skill is kinda meh.
Also we have to look at what transformations do to classes that might make it worth it those 2 SP.
Turtle - they need damage and crit rate, so kaioken still better.
Crane - They need crit rate and crit damage , kaioken still better.
Fighters - they need dodge rate , attack speed, damage and crit rate. SSJ and kaioken will be balanced out like you proposed.
Swords - damage and crit rate , kaioken still better

So for the human classes that can invest those 2 points, I can only see fighters being the ones with really an option here.

All the other classes will benefit from those changes though. Kid buu and great namek are very good transformations, so all those races will probably put 2 sp in it.

We cant.

Quote from BlazingBarrager

First off using transformations in PvP at all doesn't work. You only get to use both Kaio-Ken and your transformation in Budokai, ranked, etc. once and only once. It's when you use it that counts. For instance, Great Namek can be used to win the LP draw on that last match at the last second. Cheap yes, but still very effective.

And again Kaio-Ken got badly nerfed in lv. 70 patch so the crit rate boost you get is hardly there regardless of how many times you multiply it. Putting it back to lv. 60 patch where crit increases heavily with each multiplication would just ruin transformations period so the devs need to figure out how to balance this out. If needed, CD can be reduced for transformations (though not by alot since CD starts immediately after you transform). Also, transformations have something vital over Kaio-Ken, and that's no LP drain. Even when you have a healer on your team, you're still going to find yourself in situations where that LP drain will make you more vulnerable (CC is a prime example of this). SSJ and Pure Majin, on the other hand, can easily be maintained with the Dende's EP recovery buff so you don't have to rely on your healer unless you absolutely need to.

Kaioken is used a lot in budokais. And Even with kaioken being nerfed it was far more used then ssj, of course with increased stats that might change but going 2 SP to get that increased on a 1 hour cooldown skill to make it as strong as kaioken I think is a bit too much.
As a human, I really dont see myself using those points into ssj ( neither as a crane or a turtle).

Quote from BlazingBarrager

Then please explain how it (along with Pure Majin and Great Namek) can be improved to be just as viable as Kaio-Ken without being spammable?

By adding something else the classes that use it need. Like cranes need increased dot damage and nothing will give them that , and turtles could use some skill cooldown reduction ( not transformation reduction, but skill cooldown reduction).

I'll be the one who disagrees with this suggestion, I don't like the idea of spending SP on things like kaioken and transformation, because even those few sp points can change a lot in your build depending on your class...