DW got Nerf, nerf and nerf again..

Quote from Aru

i think it's the other way, disabling DP healing:

- IS NOT A TEST, as we don't think the skill needed an individual tweak (disregarding their own skill tree balance and composition) with correct calc (retail), so no reason to limit its features.

- IS NOT A NERF, as we are not in a that stage yet, because the game is still incomplete and before adressing class balance (during which DW should have improvements, in that we all agree, the how is the real question tho...), formulas have to be tweaked...

- Such as DP healing formula, which was bugged and said bug could be abused in certain contexts. UntIl there is a correct calc, the healing was TEMPORARILY DISABLED. Imagine Daneos wasn't able to find proper calculation to fix 1 shot sk's life drain which could have been abused? Should we let the skill in that state until proper Calculation is found or disable it temporarily to avoid abuses?

Hope it s clear now.

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Yes, for those who think it was nerfed, it was not. It has to be disabled. Please understand that everyone.

Improvement of DW is the next step and a different story. And I hope the dev would take it into their consideration when they are ready for that. I understand it must be difficult and take a lot of time and efforts. I can wait just like I have done so far.

Quote from Iceman

1. That taunt, you mean removing 50% of party aggro from all party members, if that is what you think, sure.

This way DW would be true tank, since it eats aggro of party members.

2. It is good as it is, plus I never saw it in any DW build since you have other things to take.

3. Dragon's Pledge - it would be better as HOT for 30 sec. When your HP is below 30%, you heal by 1% or on max level 5% of max HP.

Rest of physical skills, or all others, I would leave as they are since as DW, and thx to Draconic Righteousness, you will go for energy attacks.

As of KD, DW don't need it and if you really want it, get Charging Fist, it is really good KD.

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1. That's not what I meant, but your suggestion sounds better.

2. I used to have it in my build when the punishment was disabled last time. It is indeed good as it is. But unfortunately, you don't seem to understand why I suggested making it AoE (or you did understand but just don't agree with me).

3. I see your point. But again, please consider one more time why I suggested what was said in my former reply.

As for 2 and 3 above, I don't want my DW to be stronger or to get less dmg than now. DW is already strong enough in terms of defense and durability. The point is, again, that it doesn't really help the party be safe. Making DW stronger than it should be is not necessary at all. What we need for DW is skills that make the party safe. Let me emphasize one more time. SK's AoE taunt and particularly, AoE stun, are amazing skills. When his party is in danger, SK can get over the situation by using either of (or both) these two skills. On the other hand, DW is much less effective for the purpose because it can hardly stop mobs attacking other party members. You may think DW still has the AoE taunt. But like I said, in order to taunt the mobs, DW has to dash to his team mates due to the skill's narrow range, and it often results in another dangerous/risky situation since the boss is also following him. Therefore, what I suggested is, since DW and SK must be differentiated and have advantages of their own, give DW a sort of abilities to protect his party more safely than he could now while SK can just stop or taunt the mobs. Do you still think it is too much buffing for DW? You may or may not agree with me. What I have suggested is just some thought, not an absolute answer. I am still very open to discuss further.

As for KD, DW may need it. Why not? It is always good to have it. However, DW already has two KD skills, Charging Fist and Dragon Strike. So, I don't think we should change such that Dragon Strike has KD RP ability from its first grade to save only one SP (that was suggested by someone in this thread, I don't remember sorry). c.f. SK has a great AoE KD skill, but not many people use it (and of course, that is because SK has Violent Strike of which CD is just 10 sec).

Finally, I remember you said SK needed more money to have good enough gears. It depends, actually. You need to understand how powerful skill Violent Strike and Anti-crit buff SK has are. Mobs as wells bosses can crit. Please compare dmg DW and SK get from tons of mobs. And compare the LP left after they killed all the mobs. You may think DW must have more LP left because it has the healing skill, the punishment. But in reality, SK gets lower dmg while it is killing a group of mobs. And you know why; stun 'em, use powerful Self Destruction Wave while the mobs are stunned, and prevent crits from the remaining mobs (if not all of them died from SDW) at the chance by 25% or so. The idea is very simple. Why are turtles not in a dangerous situation in UD3 hard when they have much lower defense than tanks? The same goes to SK, but not to DW. Turtles get nearly zero dmg in UD3 while DW has to use the punishment at least once sometimes twice or more to survive (the loss of tens of thousands LP in total). However, a really well geared SK is as good as turtles in UD3.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying DW has to be improved so it can do whatever turtle/SK can do. No. Never. I am saying all these to tell you that DW and SK are not just different but one is superior over the other as far as party play is concerned.

I did get what you said there, but I think that DW as tanker need HOT and that hot of 30 sec, is really good for tanking.

I mean, if tanker dies, it is game over, that is why I suggested it.

One more, PVP wise, that debuff would be abused a lot, 25% reduction on physical chars, would affect them too much.

With shit tons of DW def, he would be hard to kill, that is why, HOT is better and after all, that skill was made to make DW safe.

Why DW need taunts that remove party aggro aka eats it, that is cuz of bad dmg of DW and this way healers will always have 0%.

That is all that DW needs, even if you spam it, it will still eat party aggro, soo this way, DW will keep everyone safe.

KD really isn't needed when you have chaos but if there is need for KD, then on Whirlwind would be good.

I did saw DW in action same geared as me, at least in old DBO since now healing is bugged.

Same upgrade, same type of gear that is %lp,%lp,con with props earrings and prop rings, DW tank better mobs.

Cuz of tons of pdef that he get from warrior passive + master passive + buff and gear itself.

As DW, you need to be greedy with def and I was comparing, he was my friend btw and I played on his account to before.

Thing is, DW does have lower dmg than SK but it can tank way more mobs than SK does and mobs critic well they don't critic much.

DW tanking, skills and healing is way better. Only reason why DW end up with less HP than SK it is cuz of skills that ain't fixed.

Like I said, when those skills be fixed as we suggest, DW will mostly always be at 80% HP.

One more, I will repeat, success rate energy attack skills (big 3 ones), state 2k dmg fixed healing AOE skill, Taunt that taunt and eat party aggro and HOT for DW when his LP be less than 30% and if there is need KD on Whirlwind. Monster tank is born.

PS: Like I said, if we will change skills, we need to see PVP and PVE.

DW with shit tons of anti critic and 25% pattack reduce, success rate skills that fighters can't dodge, healing, and other skills, fighters will die out easy even tho there are critics, but when they be fixed, critics will be too low to kill DW if they critic.

Quote from Iceman

I did get what you said there, but I think that DW as tanker need HOT and that hot of 30 sec, is really good for tanking.

I mean, if tanker dies, it is game over, that is why I suggested it.

One more, PVP wise, that debuff would be abused a lot, 25% reduction on physical chars, would affect them too much.

With shit tons of DW def, he would be hard to kill, that is why, HOT is better and after all, that skill was made to make DW safe.

Why DW need taunts that remove party aggro aka eats it, that is cuz of bad dmg of DW and this way healers will always have 0%.

That is all that DW needs, even if you spam it, it will still eat party aggro, soo this way, DW will keep everyone safe.

KD really isn't needed when you have chaos but if there is need for KD, then on Whirlwind would be good.

I did saw DW in action same geared as me, at least in old DBO since now healing is bugged.

Same upgrade, same type of gear that is %lp,%lp,con with props earrings and prop rings, DW tank better mobs.

Cuz of tons of pdef that he get from warrior passive + master passive + buff and gear itself.

As DW, you need to be greedy with def and I was comparing, he was my friend btw and I played on his account to before.

Thing is, DW does have lower dmg than SK but it can tank way more mobs than SK does and mobs critic well they don't critic much.

DW tanking, skills and healing is way better. Only reason why DW end up with less HP than SK it is cuz of skills that ain't fixed.

Like I said, when those skills be fixed as we suggest, DW will mostly always be at 80% HP.

One more, I will repeat, success rate energy attack skills (big 3 ones), state 2k dmg fixed healing AOE skill, Taunt that taunt and eat party aggro and HOT for DW when his LP be less than 30% and if there is need KD on Whirlwind. Monster tank is born.

PS: Like I said, if we will change skills, we need to see PVP and PVE.

DW with shit tons of anti critic and 25% pattack reduce, success rate skills that fighters can't dodge, healing, and other skills, fighters will die out easy even tho there are critics, but when they be fixed, critics will be too low to kill DW if they critic.

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Oh, I am sorry but I didn't understand what HOT exactly means. My bad.

Could you please give me the full spelling for that, not the abbreviated one? I am assuming that means something like an aggro-eating skill or a self-defense skill. Is that correct? If the former was what you meant, we may not need any other new buffs/skills, like you said. If the latter is the case, we may need to discuss further. But I am also worried a little bit about the former one. It sounds like it can also be effective in a speed party, which will be really awesome. However, the skill might be too powerful imao.

By the way, I think I need to make sure some points in our discussion.

1. Do you know how the aggro system is working in DBOG, NOT how it was in the retail servers? From what you said, I feel like you are a bit mistaken.

2. Have you ever cleared/challenged Bacterian, Kraken, Cell-X, or CCBD 150F or something like that? If you did, you should be able to see what kind of problem you may confront if you play as DW.

Your original post in this thread were saying that DW and SK are different types of tanks, DW is as good as SK, etc. And that is absolutely true for easy dungeons. Easy dungeons can be cleared by any party, to be honest. But, that's not the case for difficult dungeons. There are so many things to consider to clear difficult dungeons. And being a super-tanky tank is not all tank is about (at least in this game). You seem to need to understand that at a deeper level.

Fortunately, now we are on the same page in that we have agreed DW needs an improvement. And your suggestions are great. I want to tell you that I am so happy for that.

HOT - healing over time, when HP is less than 30% you can activate it, after all that skill was made to help DW survive.

Aggro system works - more dmg someone deals, higher aggro on him.

DW will never be able to out DPS, DPS classes, soo that is why aggro eatting taunt is good.

If someone take out aggro from you, you will use taunt to bring aggro back to yourself and reduce aggro of entire party by 50%.

Like, if fighter had 90%, he will have 40%.

Still you know that everyone can stop attacking until aggro gets reduced and yes I was part of high dungeons all time.

Mostly it use to be speed parties with karma who can remove aggro from him/her self by 1 skill.

Dende can reduce aggro with his own skill or poko can prevent anyone to target him.

Soo even tho you will spam taunt skill and less and less effect will have on bosses, it will have major effect on entire party.

Reducing their aggro by 50% each time you use it.

With CD set up, entire party can attack boss and their aggro will never go more than DW one.

Ofc, this taunt should never remove aggro from DW itself.

As DW You cannot build as strong agro as SK.

On DW You got 2 agro skills (one DW, one Warrior tree)

As a Dark Warrior

Get a stun or something when Your agro skills duration end, and Your team die.

As a Shadow Knight

Get a stun and still keep agro.

Even DW speed weapons won't help.