My case for global properties

There's alot of experimenting going on with the properties stat despite it being 1 prop = 1 prop in the original. Thankfully, defense and attack props are equal again now, which fixes the ridiculously huge imbalance in PvP.....but right now, we still have the problem of props being way underpowered. Clearly, someone on the DBOG team thinks it's broken, so here's my case on why it's not. For TLDR, just skip to the numbers:

PVP: We already know props cancel each other out, and if someone has higher props that's just the same as having higher upgraded gear. Earrings can give absolute massive boosts to DEX, Cooldown, and even complete immunity to certain stuns/bleeds which can screw over entire classes. Props of course, have a pretty powerful effect in increasing defense AND damage, but their amount is naturally made lower in comparison.

Someone who dodges 3 of your attacks in a row because of 2 DEX earrings(34 DEX * 2) SHOULD be dealing less damage and take more since they can use these opportunities to dominate the whole battle. Somebody who can pull off skill combos without having to wait on cooldown is somebody who won't give you any opening in a battle. And someone with anti-stuns/bleeds can completely annihilate some class' main chances of dealing damage altogether. These stats all seem very useful, right? My point is that every stat remains equally viable for many different situations/builds, and props were balanced well to compete with these stats. They weren't necessarily better. As far as PvP is concerned, all these updates did is tell them to use other stats that don't have such a minor impact.

Leveling: For leveling props are mostly irrelevant. They're barely even available 'till level 60. But even then I see alot of fresh 70s who never got a single prop, cooldown, or DEX accessory to their name.

End-game content: This is all props truly affect here. We now deal less damage and take more, something that sucks for all classes. But hey, Martial Artists won't be affected too much. They'll still have DEX to spam crits and dodge everything, and Dendes were gonna use cooldown anyway, But what about other classes? Sure, a Turtle can go above and beyond to get 13 props on both earrings for 13% total, but chaining 3 Kamehamehas together with cooldown and using your stun twice as often is a far better deal. The benefit of having different viable stats on accessories is to pick what suits your class better, but when the prop boost is this minor, it's no longer a valid option. In the end, you need to beat end-game bosses and end-game CC floors anyway to get the highest stats on your accessories.


Summary:
1: This nerfs buffers. They were already technically unnecessary for end-game content as people beat CC150 without them, but with their props half as effective there's no reason to take them along at all. Plus, the difference between the Chef Majin's 14% prop buff and Ultimate Majin's 18% buff used to be just enough to matter. Now it's laughable; an indirect buff to Chef Majins over Ultimates.
2: This nerfs Swordsman. Their glaring slash now only lowers enemy defense by 15% for 10 seconds, which is a ridiculous idea to put 6SP into now..
3: Every class suffers from this, but some far more than others, because not every class gets equal benefits out of the DEX and cooldown alternatives.
4: Props barely come into play until end-game PvE, AFTER you've beaten Kraken/CC to get tons of props in the first place. The stat's being nerfed for no good reason.

Props have been thoughtfully designed into the game, as their low "13" maximum compared to DEX's "34" proves. If you think tanks are surviving too easily, try lowering the LP% cap to 50. If you think the DPS'ers are dealing too much damage in single attacks, adjust the defense formula of mobs rather than touching such an important end-game stat.

Quote from adrian on fire

Finally a good explanation on why changing were a bad thing. I hope it get revert back soon. There absolutely no reason to stack properties anymore. The increase in attack and defense is so minor that it's better to stack either ,str,foc,con,dec rings and earring for what better

Well,maybe not STRENGTH, that's always been a garbage stat.....(Which is okay, every class' buffs, passives, and base stats are balanced around that fact.) But yeah, as far as rings are concerned, if you can choose between 10 props(aka 5% defense/attack) or 40 CON, 112% status resistance, 16 cooldown, etc....I think that choice should be far too obvious now.

Quote from Sendoku

Just set it to 0.8 if you wanna nerf smh...

Honestly, even setting it from 1.0 to 0.8 would be a completely unnecessary nerf. I think I've established why only retail's 1.0 is the right amount to keep. Go nerf the LP% cap if people survive too much, that stat is incredibly easy to get tons of early on , unlike props.

Quote from Sirab

Buffers were already technically unnecessary for CC150 and people beat it without them? Nice lie, they're just as required as karmas and pokos and every party i've seen beat cc150, they had an ulti.

When everyone comes together to combine their buffs and use Dragonbuffs when the tougher floors arrive, no, you don't need buffers. In fact, adding an extra DPS with better debuffs brings all new advantages. Buffers were super convenient and definitely viable, but never 100% necessary, not even to beat the top CC floors.

We just might see more parties now that never use Buffers.

Quote from Sirab

It nerfed SM's glaring slash? Well actually no I just tested it yesterday and it still gave me 30% more damage so this kinda buffs them which is what they needed, and so its safe to assume its the same for ultis props buff

I heard about the nerf from a swordsman friend, so my statement could've been wrong. Unfortunately for you, though, I went out of my way to verify this. My 31% honest props(wearing all props gear while wearing the Ultimate 18% prop buff as well) and then let myself get hit by an "Ultimate Glaring Slash". Guess what the number became? That's right, 16%. And guess how much my props were buffed when an Ultimate Majin used their maxed prop buff on me? That's right, 9%

Don't accuse people of lieing when you're either lieing yourself or didn't check the facts.

Quote from Sirab

The reason why it was capped is because there's other prop stats like "9% elegant attack" which were completely useless to use instead of "9 props" since you got both def and atk before the update, hell even when it was 1 = .7 SKs still stacked the hell out of props. You want higher defense or attack by %? You have to choose wisely now, that's balance

All games need useless stats, because if everything was useful, then you'll become overpowered far too quickly. Which is not an issue props had, being end-game only and locked behind the game's toughest challenges and whatnot.

The props SKs stacked were all because they obviously stacked them BEFORE these updates in the first place. It's not easy getting 26 cooldown/34 DEX accessories to replace your props out of nowhere. Plus, they're one of the classes who have the least use for the DEX/cooldown alternatives. Unlike say, a Fighter, who can easily replace their props with DEX instead. Crit more often, hit harder, and negate many attacks entirely. Huh, sounds alot like props which ALSO increase offense and defense.....except DEX hardly applies to classes like Shadow Knights, now does it?

So one class suffers far more from this update than others, and other stats remain equally overpowered as the old props while props are now nerfed. Oh yeah, very "balanced".

Quote from Shii

Before the properties update. For example, you have around 60% properties and if someone used Glare on you, it will decrease your properties by -30%, and you'll have 30% properties left until the debuff ends, which is 50% of your total properties.

After the properties update, you'll have around 30% properties and if someone used Glare on you, it will decrease your properties by -15%, and you'll have only 15% properties left until the debuff ends, which is also 50% of your total properties.

Unfortunately your logic makes no sense.

First off....your math is entirely wrong. Let's say your attack normally does 1000 damage. With the way props work, if someone had 60% props, you'd do 400 damage against them. After Glaring Slash, they have 30% props now, thus you'll do 700 damage. If they had 30% props by default and you used glaring slash then, you'd go from 700 to 1000 damage. This means no matter what you gain exactly 300 damage. But now that props are half as effective, you only gain 150 damage no matter how high or low someone's props are. So it's indisputably a nerf.

Secondly, a nitpick, but 60% is an unreasonable example even in the old DBO. You won't have a buffer to give you 18% props in PvP.(Unless it's group PvP, but then your team is giving up a member slot to have a buffer at all) Back in DBO TW it was 26(perfect earrings)+10(perfect rings)=36% if we don't count the attribute state of the weapon/armor.

Quote from Shii

I just wanted to say that the only thing that will effect the PvP balance is the alternative stats of properties, like DEX and cooldown stats. This update made them more viable and encourages users to use them instead of relying on properties only. I might agree on increasing the value of properties to around 0.7- 0.8 to help the PvE players and make properties stand out a bit or make them more useful in different situations.

Have you ever been in a battle against someone with huge cooldown reduction, who eventually got you in an infinite loop of knockdowns and stuns? Have you ever seen a battle where a Martial Artist or Plasma Majin won because you missed both your stun and most powerful attack, the two most decisive skills in a battle? How can you possibly vouch for DEX and cooldown with a straight face? While increasing damage and defense sounds powerful, this game isn't all about damage. Some skills apply other effects that props won't save you from at ALL. Most will agree it's the stuns and debuffs like Slow and Fear that truly decide a battle.

But hey, even in the scenario that literally EVERYONE runs props, that just means the prop calculation is simply negated.(Example: If my attack would go from 1000 to 1350 with max props, even someone wearing no armor will make that damage go back to 1000) Thus every battle will be more balanced and fair anyway. It'll be less likely to be decided by a lucky dodge or an infinite combo the prop wielder can do nothing about, though I guarantee lots of classes will use those anyway.

Finally....maybe you're not aware, but if someone uses none-attribute gear, all props are negated. So if you had 35% props, all someone would have to do is use neutral-attribute gear on you, which completely bypasses all that prop defense AND offense. Another very clear weakness. PvP definitely never needed any prop adjustments.


In conclusion, I believe my points still firmly stand, and I know most of the playerbase agree that props should be 1=1 like in retail, so please think about this. I really think the main problem has always been the combination of maxed LP% and maxed props rather than just props on their own. 1000 damage would've turned into 640 with max props in TW(assuming both parties are wearing the same attribute gear, but the other dude is wearing cooldown/DEX/CON/resist instead of props), then that was reduced to 250 because of max LP%. If you reduced the LP% cap to 50, we would end up on 320 damage instead.

Quote from Shii

The N properties is fixed months ago.

If that's true, then my argument on neutral props is outdated for DBOG. Sorry about bringing that up then.

Quote from Shii

1000 imagine that as the base dmg when both you and enemy is equally in props, if your enemy has 30% more def properties than you, then your dmg will be around 700, and if you have 30% more properties than him then you'll deal 1300 to him = you either gain 300 more def or 300 more dmg = 10 dmg per %. And if you have 1000 base dmg equally after the update, the gain of def will be 150 and the gain of dmg will also be 150, because both values got reduced. If the target has 15% more properties def then you'll deal only 850 dmg, and if you got 15% more properties, then you'll deal around 1150 dmg. You just compared the raw dmg of 60% to 30% after update, which makes it look like the dmg got nerfed and the properties defense is superior against Glare, but both actually the same after and before the Glare, 150 dmg which is also 10 dmg per %.

I don't see anything wrong with it, because Glare is modified also, if it kept as it is 30% it will be very strong.

There's some flaws with what you're saying. You're trying to say Glaring Slash isn't nerfed because people's global props are ALSO less effective, but you're forgetting that only global props were nerfed. People and mobs alike still get the same prop boost out of simply having an attribute at all, up to 15% at best.(going from -5 to 10%) Your argument only holds water in PvP battles when opponents use global props, and even there the Glaring Slash may need to cut through up to 15% props just from your enemy's attribute alone, without touching global props at all.

Besides, do you really want to put 6SP into a 10 move to do 150 damage more(assuming your attack does 1000) when you could just launch another attack? Relative efficiency aside, there's a certain amount of absolute damage you expect to gain after spending this much SP into a move and then wasting time in the battle using it.

Quote from Shii

Yes, if you wear the same stats you'll lose against them. A good player will know what to do in that situation and find a way to beat them by using either resistance gears to avoid their stuns then counter them or using Focus gear to gain success rate against their high resistance, it depends on your class, besides there is other factors other than DMG and DEF that determine the battle like you said.

......and there you have it...straight from the horse's mouth. The argument I made was that props are equally powerful and necessary to stats such as resist/DEX/FOC. You just helped me support that by saying "a good player knows to equip this stat that isn't props to avoid these situations". Tell me, if you're fighting someone you can't hit, does it make sense to equip props to increase your damage? No, you equip FOCUS rings instead of 10 prop rings. Even our friend Goku has a famous quote saying "what good is power if I can't hit my opponent?". If you're a tank trying to avoid getting combo'd forever, do you equip props? No, you equip resisting earrings, or even DEX if you're desperate. This was the case even with retail DBO where props were supposedly "overpowered and in need of a nerf".

Quote from Shii

but things like that is likely will be changed in the upcoming updates; it's just experimental.

We all know that. It's no personal attack towards your team, as much as I like being smug. Still, as active community we want to help steer your decisions rather than just pray you'll make the right choice. Why hold conversations at all if all we should do is wait, right?