Balance & Changes - Turtle & Crane

  • repairing giant isnt nessacary as giant is more powerful if your wand is better than your gloves

  • I think that turtle is fine how they are. I have a full geared turtle myself and only the damage feels low. Except that I think sleep is unfair because you can get out of combat even if enemy has your sleep debuff same applies to candy. Thanks to this they can spam sleep and destro disc. Many classes can't counter this.

    I don't think that they need a nerf on their crit dmg because his strong skills have cast time + turtle has a low critrate. Only around 30 with proper gear. Nerfing their dmg more would just make turtle less viable in many aspects.


    Another thing is their def buff don't know what it is called is rarely being used. It isn't bad but it also isn't great. It's just good for solo pvp. Don't know if this needs a change.

    This is why I didn't contribute much for Turtles aside from the Defense buffs, and even then it's not a big enough impact to warrant worry. I agree that Turtles are fine the way they are and only need more tinkering when it comes to the damage formula. There are some changes I'd like to see (like making Kamehameha Spiritualist skill not cost freaken 8 SP to max or the "Increase Agility" passive be more useful), but I know that these aren't needed enough to warrant attention to improving the class as a whole.

  • Every fakin time when community want boost thier main class

    Image leaks: crane after community boost.rNqKyoS.png


    -Crane

    -Reduce all bleeds dmg by 30%, only bleed should be fixed and ignoring the opponent defense, main damage of skills should depends of upgraded weapons and opponent defese.

    395.png Spirit Wave - Today for use this (paralize) skill first we need drop 231.png poison bleed on our opponent, poison that have 1sec cast time and 1,5 sec with the animation almost impossible to use it in pvp you will die 5 times before you will use it, and we need spend another 1 sp for get it... I suggest to replace 231.png Poison bleed with 298.png Double Gut Buster for be able to use Spirit Wave.


    -Turtle

    350.png Consecutive Disks - Let this skill cancel sleep and speed up the animation.

  • First, thanks for the first step into more transparency!


    As for changes for a turtle, I think they are mostly fine.

    Turtle is a glass cannon with one of the lowest survivabilities, therefore it should have some good dmg output. In this case you have 3 hard hitting attacks, with the stronges with almost a minute cooldown, imo that is fair.


    From my understanding, the dmg in pve is too low (I am still crying over TWs dmg), while on pvp it is too high. One shotting other hard hitters or dmg dealers imo is right, atm it is mostly one shotting everyone (buffed vs. buffed and unbuffed vs. unbuffed).

    Thats if you crit. If you don't crit, you suck, doing dmg that is almost below noticable.

    Might be a bit better with lvl70 cap, we will see...either that or it frustrates new players not having high upgraded gear and cc dungeon stuff/aura


    Things that could be changed apart from an overall adjustment of a seperated pvp and pve dmg:


    Sleeps duration doesn't decrease like some other debuffs, if you use it more than once on the same target in the same round. Might work abit against an infinite combo. Idk If it is still possible, since I don't do solo pvp, but it was like that if you time sleep, rp stun and rp disc right.


    Change Weaken Debuffs Duration back again to 20min. Idk why it ever was changed, the only thing I can think of, was ppl. at platform crying. Platform should never been taken into consideration...

    In solo pvp you allways have time to renew it during sleep. If you can't land sleep combos you either try to knockdown, to burst fast or won't survive anyways, imo.

    In party pvp you rarely have the time to apply it.

    Apart from loosing the debuff anyways when you die or the round ends.

    And in pve it is just annoying to allways renew it on those few bosses taking longer than 3 minutes.


    A little buff with benefits for all clases: Make Energy Reduction count again as a curse. In tw and the early days here, you could apply it to a party member and if a karma gives someone his Love Cursing Aroma you could trigger it with Energy Reduction to get a little base attack dmg buff for a little time.

    This gives turtle a good argument for taking into partys apart from having aoes for the mobs before the boss. Because let's be honest in this repetitive game, there will mostly allways be a karma for speedbuff in the party, because crit parties just taking too long and turtles dmg against bosses is replacable.

  • nope thats why turtle cant win vs crane.

    its always same:
    crane use freeze > then sleep, turtle try use disk but it wont cancel the sleep while crane can cancel turtle sleep with his freeze and always after freeze crane will cast sleep faster than turtle.

    Oh thought that was already done because people flamed about this a few months ago. If we look at the description of that skill then it should prevent the target from fighting this includes all skills and auto attacks that are currently processed.

  • Doesn't this already cancel the sleep?

    no it doesnt



    other than evilpiccolo and myself no one else tried suggesting a way to help turtles against cranes. Cranes beat turtles as badly as karmas beat cranes.


    _______________________ this message is for entire community________________________

    if we are talking about pvp balance we must talk about how badly cranes outclass turtles and suggest possible solutions to limit this advantage without buffing making turtle un-killable to a class that had a fair fight against them.


    thats why i suggested adding reduction of sleep duration, since cranes and turtles are the only classes that utilize this skill. It will reduce the dispairity between the 2 classes. without buffing turtle agianst other classes win win jaja

  • At last, actions have been taken. I suppose the last thread concerning dbog's problems didn't go in vain. I'm glad and appreciate the leap you took. As a matter of fact, I did believe that eventually you would start acting, but I did not anticipate that you would make an open discussion so soon. Truly well done.


    So first of all, some of the suggestions are on the wrong side, some of them are on the right. That's how it always is and will be, but the positive feedback is what we're trying to achieve here. What those classes truly require, is not just some basic powerful boosts to make them stronger overall, but to increase the abilities they specialize in and make them more viable in pve as well. Which means that merely increasing their defensive or offensive abilities is far from enough. This game might not have what it takes to make each class' gameplay completely different, but it is certainly possible to make classes provide what they're supposed to provide. In other words, each profession has it's own role and specialty, improving the same global stats for all of them is hardly a balance. That's why I liked the idea of recently implemented invulnerability frames for fighter, the fact that it's actually something they specialize in - avoiding damage to compensate for the lack of survivability. They will obviously need more adjustments in the future, just like every class in every mmo, but the idea itself speaks volumes.


    I will only discuss about a profession I am well aware of and understand reasonably, I'll leave turtles for those who actually play them. I do like the ideas like consecutive discs canceling sleep, would make fights trickier and it wouldn't end with cranes controlling the battle with an ease.


    294.png Agile Armor - Let's be honest. The skill was intended to be a defensive one, right? Well, it did not work out so well as defense rate is arguably one of the most useless boosts in the entire game. Now there's quite a lot of ways you could go with it to improve the pvp aspect, but why stop there? This skill has the potential to bring decent party utility. Every class must bring some support in order to be effective in group content. Yes, there are support classes for that, but even so, a class without any supportive abilities is terrible. Now when people think about group buffs, they tend to think about buffs such as attack speed, properties, increased damage or other well known and globally used buffs. But if we're talking about a specific profession, then it should be something they specialize in. This buff could have a relatively low duration in case the current one was too long for whatever adjustments that will be made. Knowing that the class specializes in condition damage/damage over time, this boon should provide something related to it. It could either decrease the duration of global damage over time for you and your allies, or simply give a temporary immunity to such effects. The positive outcome would be that it would give crane hermits the ability to provide some party utility in pve (yes, dot mobs exist) and perhaps in pvp content. Although when it comes to pvp, it should probably be differently balanced. Sure, it could be something more practical on the defense side too like some of the folks suggested, but the fact that cranes specialize in condition damage makes it fairly reasonable as well. The duration, percentage value of buff it provides and etc is up to you to experiment and decide as my personally given values aren't going to be the verdict.


    298.png Double Gut Buster - The reason crane hermits use this skill, is because it's a dot skill that does not wake your enemy up and it takes away a small portion of health from your enemy. The amount of damage it deals is truly low, but it also gives you the opportunity to increase your enemy's cooldowns and decreases his physical attack which is the most useless of all three functions. Basically this skill doesn't provide enough to be relevant. You can be just fine without using it.

    I have a few ideas of what purpose this skill could serve. Obviously it's pick that or that, not give it all. The simplest one would be enhancing the Spirit Wave by making Spirit Wave deal abdominal pain damage. That way cranes wouldn't have to risk to apply poison from a relatively low distance and some cast time which leaves them open for attacks. Seriously, they have skills that require real combinations, and the only poison skill they have, is at the bottom of their spiritualist's skill tree. Spirit Wave is already risky, because a lot of anti bleeding accessories also have anti paralysis and the skill already requires more than a simple click. It would slightly help against karmas in a way, just a small note.

    Another idea I have in my mind, is to make this skill siphon life from your enemy. It wouldn't be anywhere close to life steal, but it would give a tiny bit of health back to you. If you look deeply into similar classes like crane hermit in other mmos, that's exactly what kind of ability they have there as well.

    The last and the trickiest one. I'm not really suggesting this as it would most likely be impossible to implement, I'm just going to mention it in case the combat system is ever going to change a little bit. The reason why it's tricky and hard to implement, is because the game doesn't really have debuffs that would gain your allies special effects on their skills. What this debuff would do, is give your allies dot effects on their offensive skills. For instance, while the debuff is active on an npc enemy, every- ish offensive skill that would be used on that mob would apply a bleeding or any other dot effect. Let's say the duration is 4 seconds, so the dot would be like ~40/2 sec or something as short and simple. Those special dot effects would be short because of how spammable skills are. I would go into that more deeply as it won't even make much sense now, but the game doesn't seem to have such a possibility at the moment or ever. System like this would open lots of options for every class though and group content would be more cooperative. Guess I've played too many modern mmos to even mention this. Oops.


    280.png Increase Agility - Normally this skill doesn't bother me, it could be as it is. But if it is necessary to change it, I don't see more dexterity as a very reasonable choice, but that's mainly because I'm used to real mechanics and rng never appealed to me. What if this skill decreases the duration of skill lock? Heh, serves you right karmas. Just kidding obviously. But for real, it could be something similar to agile armor, decrease some cast time or something that's never been introduced. For example, if your health reaches a certain threshold/whenever it's low, you gain x defense/health regeneration or anything small but slightly helpful. But I'm by no means against the idea of increasing the dexterity gain by this passive.


    301.png Freeze - Purely pve. I can't believe that some people are still trying to freeze ccbd bosses with this skill sometimes. But to be honest, completely freezing bosses would be ridiculously too powerful. Instead of making it completely useless in ccbd, why don't we come up with a compromise? Instead of bosses having a complete immunity to this skill, how about granting this skill the ability to apply vulnerability to knockdowns or any other cc? "Freeze" debuff would still apply to them, but it wouldn't freeze them at all. It'd simply make it possible for your allies to cc him (one form of cc only, like knockdowns for example). It wouldn't affect pvp in any way, because this skill doesn't give players immunity to any cc in the first place, so even if vulnerability did apply to players, it'd make no difference and it would be the same as now. That way cranes might be more desirable in dungeons as this skill has a lot of potential in pve as well, it just so happens that instead of having a smaller effect on bosses, it doesn't affect them in any way whatsoever. Which is a waste of a skill in cc dungeons.

    398.png Thousand Slashes - You know why. The damage has been reasonably decreased a lot, but the skill still needs to be adjusted. The cooldown is too long even though it requires a precise number of dots to be useful. Decreasing the cooldown of at least one of the long cd bottom skills would certainly improve it. Even 15 seconds would change a lot for those who actually understand when to use this skill and it's advantages.



    As others have mentioned, crane hermits don't have many decent dot options when it comes to variety. Other than that, there's some interesting ideas from others. I just wanted to focus on the specialty of the class and party utility that hasn't been suggested so far. My ideas are a little theoretical as well, keep that in mind. Just a different approach. Merely increasing dot damage (which they have reasonably enough) or giving props is ridiculous. Still, would be nice to see guard changes one day, it would change the whole dynamics.

  • I love your idea for freeze I forgot about the uselessness in pve.


    2 thumbs up on freeze idea

  • nope thats why turtle cant win vs crane.

    its always same:
    crane use freeze > then sleep, turtle try use disk but it wont cancel the sleep while crane can cancel turtle sleep with his freeze and always after freeze crane will cast sleep faster than turtle.

    What about this:

    -Crane dash

    -Turtle use the book

    -Crane use freeze

    -Crane cast Hypnosis

    -Turtle use KD Rod and cancel the cast ...

    -Turtle use Hypnosis / kame / slow / .... etc ...


    Idk but I remember I saw someone doing this against Cranes an it works most of the times ?(

    I don't remember if it was a video or something but I have saw this more that one time.

  • Argue with evidence.

    adding a 0.5 seconds cast to sleep wouldnt make much sense since it nerfs turtles in the process. we are looking for a fix for cranes vs turtles since cranes trump turtles without a thought.


    sleep already has many disadvantages 1 being you cant attack the opponent (unless your a crane cause dot hacks jaja)


    turtles and cranes require sleep to be effective in combat, adding extra cast time will burden the classes against swordsmen and fighters, tbh spiritualist already have a hard fight against those class at 70 now if u add the 37% focus reduction on top of a 18% lp reduction spiritualist will not be able to consistently land there much needed stuns, and within stand no hits movement speed at 70 already is too much for spiritualist to handle, there is a rare opportunity for spiritualist to land a sleep on ma and with a 2 second sleep its possible (unlikely but possible) adding that extra 2.5 seconds it will not benefit anyone but classes that already have an advantage against spiritualist.


    thats why i suggested to buff to turtles that they will have to cast to reduce sleep duration actually tbh 25% is too low it should be 33% this way only 15 seconds is availabe to cranes it gives minor time to prep for turtle, but not too much time to give turtle no chance of recovery. This doesnt nerf turtles or buff turtles in a way that will make them too good against classes that they have advantages against already

  • Then do not do anything to the Hypnosis skill and better use the strategy I mentioned above.

  • Some changes I would Consider for Cranes:


    Crane Cyclone / Mystical Crane Thypoon: Change bleeds to Poison. Keep the damage the same.


    Reason - New strong possibilities besides Bleeding and Burn).


    Searing Crane: Change Behind x1.5 Bonus to Critical Damage bonus.


    Reason - Good Tool for farming


    Tri-beam Cannon: Add Critical Damage bonus. (Same ideia as Figther's Big bang atk) / Increase area to 10x10


    Reason - Good Tool for farming / better dmg for prelims


    Fan Out / M. Fan Out: Add Behind x1.5 Atk bonus for both or just one.


    Reason: Better damge on Budokai prelims


    Resist it: Add some Dodge rate.


    Reason - Assit on resistance


    Agile Amor: Like the idea of increase defense by % (Maybe 7% and 14%) / Increase RP regenation by X.


    Reason: It would be a real "Defense increase" / helps charging RP on PVP.


    Spirit wave / Heat wave / S. Sensation / S. Tongs: Remove Status request to use them / Rework on Duration and Cooldown!


    Heat wave: Replaces Confusion for Fear ( AoE Fear ) - 6~8 secs I think is enough.


    Spirit wave / S. Sensation / S. Tongs: Debuff and area ok for me.


    Reason: Most of anti-bleeding jewels has anti-para with them. Anti-para rings has Anti-fear too.

    Maybe a good rework on % Jewels could be the point to balance some status.


    Thats all for now. :)

  • O well, since we are with suggestions. Here is a little crazy idea.

    One of the biggest disadvantages of the Turtle its the long animation when using "Consecutive Disks". Also on many occasions the Turtle is performing the animation of the skill and then they get hit by some Stun and all the damage and the effect of the skill are canceled.


    What if they added a small effect when using "Consecutive Disks" like a mini buff of stiffness or already in a crazy way the same immunity of the fighter for only 2 sec. This way the Turtles could always finish using this skill without canceling them at half animation and they would have more opportunity to fight against the MA and the Crane. Even they can have more chances to fight against Karmas.


    Meh, I know it sounds crazy but maybe it works.?(

  • I really like how you balance classes step by step, first fighter and swordsman now turtle and crane.

    I also like how you take suggestions from the community that's the important step to make the game better.


    As for crane, i suggest making changes to the following skills :


    *Agile armor 294.png

    • Increase anti bleed or burn.
    • Increases RP regen as it's important to charge RP in pvp while enemy is sleeping.

    *Crane Discharge293.png

    • Con and Eng as it is
    • Increase DoT skills by 10%
    • Make it a party/AoE buff but doesn't stack with any Con buff.

    *Increase Agility280.png

    • Dex as it is.
    • Decrease cooldown or cast speed.

    *Fan out, Master fan out and tri-beam cannon 303.png 306.png 297.png

    • Give them attack from behind x 1.5 as it would make people go different builds with crane, this skills will get along well with hypnosis as a combo. *Hypnosis then debuff then from behind.
    • Or critical damage increases but it would be effortless, i see that x1. 5 better.
    • Nerf the move speed decrease if you do above.

    *Put out flames380.png

    • Invincible during skill animation.

    *Solid burn and Poison bleed229.png 231.png

    • Reduce SP cost for these skills as it takes alot.
    • Remove poison bleed cast speed but increase its cooldown by 2-3 sec.

    Lastly i wish best luck to all.

  • The last reply was more than 365 days ago, this thread is most likely obsolete. It is recommended to create a new thread instead.

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