Posts by EchoSon

Quote from Sirab

Im not even going to be maining Ulti for long and most definitly not in 70 cap so nice try. I dont even look forward to 70 cap. Sounds like you're just crying because no one is taking your Fighter into parties, Fighters need a buff in PvE in general, just have to wait for it.

Also Fighters arent as bad in PvE as they in 70 cap right now, sure you're prolly not going to be taken in by randoms but try to get known in the PvE community, prove yourself, build trust, and you will be whispered by PvE teams.

Haha, I get you're baiting me back a little, but you have no idea. Don't worry about me, man, I just might be able to get a Grand Chef to beat CC150 if I really wanted. With options like THAT open to me, I doubt I need to worry much about my Fighter.

Quote from emmanu500

I could stupidly agree with you, but you should know that this would not change anything, the party speed will continue to opt for a buffers

this is true I think you should leave this topic and continue with another, to suggest some change in humans in which they can serve in a party EchoSon

Ooooh. I'm trying to banish buffers from speed parties by nerfing them? So THAT's what I was doing.....

Let me give my suggestion straight to help you understand what I actually desire:

Buffers should have the movement speed mechanic which increases their movement speed removed. In return, their spin should stack with Kaioken and be allowed to crit. This'll increase their damage and give them a reason to get crit gear. Before you say crit spins would be OP, no they wouldn't. A spin will always be just as good at farming even if it's 10 times as strong, all thanks to that pesky 5-second stun at the end, so it'll mainly help in dungeons. It'll have little effect on serious PvP where people equip anti-candy. People who didn't equip anti-candy were screwed even before this update.

With this, buffers would be more capable in ANY party rather than be forced to rely on 1 party combination to unlock their true power. Meanwhile attack speed parties lose 1 extra advantage. They can also use Kaioken without losing their most valueable attack, which is really obnoxious as a buffer. So it's a win-win. If there are downsides, by all means tell me.

Quote from Tempest

Attack speed only is supreme because it's the most time efficient method, but every class is still capable of doing PVE.

Blame the community, not the game.

Players take ultimates for dungeons because of the buffs they give. Not because of movement speed aligning with spin. Even before that update ultimate's would still be a core class in the eyes of the community due to the update requiring to take an ultimate into dungeons so you have their buffs.

Blame the community for taking the most blatantly efficient route? That's a natural human response, especially if the method is THAT much better.

If the alternatives had ANY advantages to speed parties, like safety or time-efficiency or speed having a negative effect on AoE, people would consider it. But attack speed is safer, faster, and has no downsides. So yes, it's the game that's to blame, not the players. Developers attempt to balance their games for a reason, welcome to Earth. Wanna blame Fox and Sheik mains for choosing high-tier characters next?

Also, what Kazuna suggested is that future speed parties may not need to take Turtles because Buffers can replace their AoE in speed parties, regardless of it being a buffer's primary purpose. I think she's wrong because Speed Restrain and attack speed from 35m range is too stupidly OP to pass up, but she has some points.

Quote from Sirab

1. You're missing my point again, removing the movement speed% dmg effect from spins wont change anything, your Fighter won't even be a consideration for a floor 150 run regardless sadly. Thats not being biased that is a fact just look at retail 70 cap.

2. I am against speed %, but whats nerfing a spin going to do? People will still do speed parties. Also this may not be a direct buff but this is also buffing GC's, let them have a damn buff already.

3. Do you play this game? Have fun doing CCBD 91 - 150 with no speed%, that is beyond god tier levels of cancerous stress. Maybe if Daneos added floor 121 & 141 tickets it wouldnt be too bad and since floor 145 has the hardest boss I dont see why the hell not. And Kraken/Cell X had like 0% chance of dropping an earring before POB shut down, there needs to be major changes to PvE period.

1. ....and? That should stop us from taking 1 step at a time in the right direction? Or did you change your mind and love attack speed parties since you happen to be part of 'em anyway? This change encourages attack speed parties more, therefore it must be undone. It's as simple as that.

2. I never suggested a nerf, nor was it ever about nerfing the spin. You and everyone else here need to get that out of your head. I suggested alternative better ways to buff a spin WITHOUT using movement speed. Hell, buff the spin to rotate 70~80% faster at all times if you must. That's also stupidly OP, but at least it doesn't force attack speed parties anymore. (I don't recommend that, but I'd take it over what we have now. )

Also, don't hide behind Grand Chefs. If this update was meant for them it'd only apply to the ball skill. But Ultimates got buffed too, so people will STILL take an Ultimate over a Chef. Don't pretend like I wouldn't grant Chefs buffs if it was down to me.

3. That's a different issue that I agree need revamps, hopefully something simple like giving players 20% extra offensive props on CC boss floors if the Poko+Karma combination gets nerfed. But it's a FAR less important issue than half of DBO's classes being obsolete.

Quote from Tempest

So what you are effectively against is buff synergy? Welcome to Dragon Ball Online, or MMO's in general, where Buffs can increase the effective power of a class that is not in their skill set.

Buff synergy for example:

•   +   Are both two buffs that work exceptionally well for Fighters who choose to run a dex/crit based gear.

• + Both stack well for shadow knights who run LP%/properties gear.

• + Both are buffs that work in synergy for plasmas who run energy crit based gear.

And now your concern is:

• + That are buffs that will work in well with mighty majins (more specifically, ultimate majins ) that run movement speed gear

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Are you....selectively choosing parts you want to hear, or did you COMPLETELY forget why Pokos+Karmas are an issue?

Since we're in grade school apparently....parties with speed weapons and the Karma+Poko duo are ATTACK SPEED PARTIES. Everyone in this party does WAY more 1-on-1 damage than they could ever do with any skill. This efficiently turns every class in the game into a DPS, while still retaining their tank/healer/support role. These parties are non-arguably the BEST for clearing anything safely and efficiently, from Cell-X to even CC150. With this update, you just FURTHER encouraged everyone to use that exact team because now they buff a buffer's spin as well, which is any buffer's ultimate skill.

I'm saying if you're going to buff Majin spins, make it stack with Kaioken, let it crit, and/or give it an RP power/duration up ability. There were infinite ways to make spins stronger, and you chose the absolute worst possible method to do so. DBOG will only get Dende+Poko+Karma+Ultimate parties until you guys take action. It doesn't matter how many alternative party proposals you make, nor how many Ultimate mains disagree because they mistakenly think I'm trying to take their buff away, nothing changes that fact.

Also, who thinks Plasma+Grand Chef+DEX Fighter is a great idea for PvE?? A Chef's greatest buff is the CON % boost, which DEX Fighters don't synergize with. Plus, DEX is garbage for PvE. Nobody worth their salt brings DEX to an out-of-their-league dungeon. This is common sense.

Quote from emmanu500

you're smart enough to know that it does not matter if it hurts more or not, the buffers will continue at the party

You wanna shout from the rooftops how you missed the point next, or are the forums enough for you? Perhaps you wanna rant at me next how buffers deserved a buff and to be in more parties or something. Try re-reading the first post. Maaaybe you'll find out this isn't about buffers, no matter how much dimwits here are trying to twist this into "EchoSon's bitching about buffers getting buffed."

Quote from Sirab

EchoSon You're also missing a valid point, speed parties already heavily excluded Fighters/Swordsman, even in retail where spins were completely useless.

Only way MAs will be taken in parties in 70 cap is if karma and poko speed buffs are unstackable. But that also brings other problems like how 70 cap PvE takes too long without speed so that's not a very simple change and would need major adjustments to PvE in general.

1: That's no excuse to worsen the issue and buff this party combination even more. How is "They were shit back then, so it's fine if they're even more shit now." a valid point?? Is it the bias of being an Ultimate yourself so it doesn't affect you, or am I missing something HUGE that totally makes half of DBOG's classes not being include-able a non-issue?

2; Spins were weak at high-end stuff, though they worked fine for farming, and buffers were viable anyhow for CC150. That said, I'm STILL okay with a buff regardless, this is simply the wrong way to do it. Even you who complained about attack speed before should understand why the spin needed to be buffed in a different way than THIS.

3: It's an easy choice. Should dungeons take less time to spam, or should more classes and thus players be dungeon-viable? More drops for 1 particular group of people, or less drops for that 1 particular group but more drops for all players in general? There's really no picking the former option without coming across as biased.

Quote from Kirito

• Balance
  

  
  

• • Counter Attack passive success rate has been decreased from 80% to 50% (it was too overpowered for SM).

1: Nerfing a class that's never won a single Budokai before? And you realize guard-spamming is incredibly punishable? Why are we focusing on non-offenders in the balance? Actually make an attempt to be objective!

2: Let's nerf EVERYONE's counter rate for this??? This team sure loves tampering with stats affecting everyone rather than addressing the actual issue at hand. When will you guys learn?

3: Counter rate is meant to be based on DEFENSE RATE. So are chances of resisting knockdowns and HTBs. WHY are we still using randomly decided fixed rates and leaving defense rate to remain a mostly pointless stat?

4: Slightly less on-topic, but counter didn't need RP to work in retail. It was just a low chance that increased with defense rate.

Who's making these balance choices, and why are they so biased? You can argue all you want this isn't a big change to hide it's a mistake, but you NEED to get your priorities straight.

Quote from Hardlock

It would be the same, never everyone will agree with some change that is done.

Who cares what people agree with? Nobody wants nerfs or see other classes that aren't their own get buffed. It's about being objective, but you guys are just getting advice from your friends and rolling with it. There should be no excuse why one class would be better than the other. It needs to be tested 'til EVERYONE is close in both PvE and PvP in terms of viability. Clearly Daneos and the DBOG team either don't have that objective viewpoint, or just aren't experienced enough. If someone in the DBOG team DOES, then they don't have enough influence.

Therefore only 1 person should make the calls. Then we'll see in-game whether that Balance Moderator made the right choice, not by community response, but by seeing if there's still only 1~3 classes winning Budokai's, and still only 1 party combination is being taken to difficult stuff. Objectivity and experience is more important than whatever just happens to come to mind that your friends conveniently like too.

For some reason people took this as me complaining the Majin Spins got buffed. To all of you who did......

YOU COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT.

I didn't think a buff was necessary, but I'm indifferent to that. What I'm AGAINST is movement speed being the trigger. You're encouraging attack speed parties even more because of this, the Poko+Karma combination. THAT's the issue. Why do people love twisting a discussion into something it's not?

Quote from Howlett

The problem of the majority of the Community (Martial Artists) is to create a PVP character and then complain that they can't party in PVE content.

1: There's no PvP/PvE distinction with classes. Most top PvP classes....Ultimates, Karmas, SKs, are ALL the characters you'd want to take to CC150 as well. Dende, the ultimate PvE class? Great at PvP, ESPECIALLY Party PvP. So that's a garbage argument.

2: Martial Artists are the first class presented to you. Most people being Saiyan fans are going to pick it just because they love DBZ or wanna be like Goku/Vegeta. How are they SUPPOSED to feel about being locked to lvl70 PvP, which they would've been just as good at if they just picked an SK or Karma?

Quote from Tempest

Aligning movement speed to effect spin is a small minor tweak/adjustment, and is not considered a huge issue. It hasn't drastically impacted PVP or PVE, the update just helps mighty majins deal a little extra damage for those who choose to wear movement speed gear.

You mean it helps them deal up to 102% more damage if they've got a Poko, Karma, Movement Speed potion, and Speed Dogi? Did you mean to mention that a single lvl45 Majin could annihilate all of UD3's first floor enemies in a single spin with a Karma+Poko before this update? Riiight, my bad. Sorry to imply it wasn't a tiny lil' tweak~

...lol, it's not even the buff itself I'm trying to argue with, I'm mostly cool with that. But it's funny how desperately you're trying to underplay this. Can we double a Fighter's needle damage next if they stack movement speed? Just a small minor tweak, right~? (...that's a sarcastic joke, dimwits.)

Quote from Dendeee

It doesnt increase attack power. It increases spin speed .-.

Why do ppl have to complain about unnecessary things instead of things that actually need to be discussed. Don't go making threads about every little update. Make a normal thread discussing how the game should be balanced in general.

Technicalities. Whether you attack twice as hard or twice as often, the result's the same, you do 2x damage.

Also, this has EVERYTHING to do with balance. Encouraging only the Dende+Poko+Karma+Buffer party is terrible for PvE balance. We should encourage ALL CLASSES to be viable in party combinations, not just 1 specific combination of subclasses. The way DBOG is going, we're gonna see NOTHING but that one party combination, plus either a Turtle or an SK, depending on how OP the Poko is. This is a humongous issue affecting everyone who's not part of these 6 sub-classes....classes who are ALL great at PvP too, Pokos excluded. No matter how you twist things, that will remain an issue forever until something is done.

I can't believe that Majin Spins were so casually given an update that made movement speed boost their attack power.

This isn't just from how OP it can get, causing people to just spin/double spin their way through UD3, but more specifically to make MOVEMENT SPEED the trigger. You realize the two classes that give movement speed, yes? They're Karmas and Pokos, the duo infamous for attack speed parties already. You've limited viable party combinations already, but now you're actively encouraging people to use attack speed parties more??

Why even buff the spin at all? It did it's job at farming already. And why do it this way?? I can't comprehend why you didn't just give it an RP duration/power ability, or let it stack with Kaioken as a buff instead. Or why you didn't consider buffing the Mighty Majin's Pure form instead. This is literally the worst way you could've gone about this. Combinations like this just might even become OP in party PvP.

Quote from ToruChan

Since crit is nerfed going speed makes more sense now and people will want to go speed.

Crits on Fighters do more damage than their attack speed, actually.(on other classes it's still way superior despite being 100ms). Still, speed parties will be more common because movement speed increases a Majin's spin speed. Who gives movement speed? Karmas and Pokos, of course.

Great job thinking that one through, dev team. Have you considered a balance moderator yet?

Who cares what class people prefer? Obviously it's humans because of the love for Saiyans. Would things change if Majins were fan-favorites instead?

No. The only thing we need to concern ourselves with is VIABILITY. Have buffers ever not been viable in dungeons? No, they've always been viable. They won't beat bosses as fast as a DPS, but whether you risk everyone's lives with a Fighter to shave off a minute, or value your team's survival with an attack speed buffer is your choice.

Let's look at the other side. Have a Swordsmen/Cranes ever not been viable? YES, all the time!

The thing setting humans and Majins apart is that humans must be OP to be "viable". You may see my Fighter destroying Kraken and Bacterian, but the difference is that my Fighter's +12 and the buffer could be +6. Switch that around and make the Fighter +6, now he'd get his ass kicked AND contribute nothing in damage. Meanwhile the now +12 Ultimate becomes invincible on TOP of still having spins, buffs, debuffs, heals, invulnerability to stuns, and support skills.


"But Fighter/Swordsman/Crane are not PvE classes!! They're meant for PvP! "

There's no "PvE/PvP" distinction in this game. You'd take a Karma/Ultimate/SK over a Plasma/Chef/DW to CC150 anyday. And guess what? They're ALSO great at PvP. How about Dendes, the most viable PvE class of all? ALSO great at PvP, especially party PvP.

So there's no excuse. We get this update for a few buffers who got shafted by some impatient randoms....fine. But then where's the "revamp humans to be PvE-viable"(Turtles aside) update? If you're gonna solve a minor issue for a small minority, you should do so for problems affecting the majority too. Start changing up skills to not have so much useless crap and give them some utility. Making the majority of DBO players feel useless because they chose the first class the game presented to them, being Saiyan/human fans, is a humongous issue that should STOP being taken so lightly.

I'm all down for more Budokais. After a while of each cap, there's little "preparing" left to do, especially soon for those who cashed their way to good gear. I know you could argue the Budokai "loses it's magic", it's the pinnacle of DBO and losses need to be devastating or whatever....but I think you're taking it a little too seriously at that point.

It's just a sport, and people LOVE good competition. Let's get more of that, then otherwise busy people might join more often too!

Quote from Tempest

• This was to help encourage a more different variety of classes within parties to be formed instead of the generic shadow knight, poko, dende, karma + extra standard party.

Many players felt other classes were abusing the duration of the ultimate and chef classes, which was why some members of the community demanded for this mechanic to be changed.

Riiight. So according to that logic the "optimal party setup" can be SK+Poko+Dende+Karma, with the Ultimate replacing the Turtle. Face it, the issue was crap balancing. Poko+Karma is too good to miss out on thanks to their attack+movement speed buffs, which now also buffs the buffer's spin! Not only have you made humans even WORSE of an option to take along, you made it even MORE necessary to take the infamous Karma+Poko combination. Except now they're dominant on lower level caps too, BEFORE attack speed becomes huge. Thanks for that!

Buffers were always viable in all dungeons thanks to their support skills, taunts, tankiness, AoE spins and Pure Majin attack speed. They're even completely necessary in high level CC runs. The only people who'd actively refuse to take a buffer along would be dickish randoms. Yet because a few buffers felt the sting of rejection that Swordsmen and Cranes ALWAYS got, they deserved this entire change, despite the obnoxious side-effects it gets us and how it limits party combinations even MORE??

Quote from Iceman

Fix dual client, no AFK Token abuse, no one man party taking dungeons, it will be team play and people will work on their characters beside "human PVP" classes shits as you can see now.

1-man teams taking down dungeons? How many people have you even seen capable of that? You've just got a personal vendetta here....

...besides, it's impossible. VPNs, proxies, virtual machines, there's always a way to dual-client. The original DBO tried to stop it, it failed as well.

Hmm, I'm gonna disagree with this one. Besides, there's plenty of reasons boxes were cheaper earlier.

1: People didn't have zeni PERIOD to buy them for 2kk each. I got my Halo and Wings for about 1kk back at the lvl29 cap, now I'd have to shell out 7kk. Zeni was worth more back then.
2: There was a zeni duplication glitch, and while people got banned for it, I doubt nobody got away with it.

3: Brown boxes will ALWAYS be wanted, just like U70 stones. Demand means prices won't go down as much. Why settle for 600k zeni on something as valueable as a brown box? You can get 21 CON on CC armor with that, or 9 props on earrings, things you could never get otherwise.

You might have taken max stats on any item you want for granted. If this world needs more brown/silver boxes, then it should be by World Boss Event. The Wagu's brown boxes are on a generous enough level to warrant donating as is.

Nothing's worse than being one of the strongest people in the server, then suddenly becoming one of the weakest all thanks to bad luck. The entire idea that gear is what makes you powerful in a DBZ-game is absurd already, but NTL wanted to play it safe with a generic MMO formula, so we're stuck with this garbage method of getting stronger.

If we HAVE to force people to fight each other in Papaya for stones to "extend the game's lifespan",...then lowering the droprate is the only way to go. Though if I had the luxury of choosing, I'd have revamped this game's upgrade system entirely. Sadly it's never so easy to just program a new system in like that.

I'm a little disappointed about this one. There's a lot of minor and major bugs with a lot of tickets made, but I guess Daneos wasn't too busy with DBO this week. Try to step it up, DBOG is still very far from being stable.

This would solve a huge issue, yeah. The less opportunities we give to toxic players, the better. Make seal coins and stones have a "rare" tier so dice looting will be less obnoxious. No reason not to do this.

Love these detailed updates as usual! As for the SSJ vs Giant Namek/Pure Majin argument....

Keep in mind SSJ was basically the same as Kaioken, with less damage but a bit more accurate/dodgy in return. It's main advantage was that it's easy to uphold in solo PvE. How Namekians and Majins get jealous over not getting a second Kaioken is beyond me.

That said, we should totally let Kid Buu dash and have Giant Namekians fly. And have all transformations able to use Dragonbuffs.(At least GN and SSJ, I guess Kid Buu has no animations for it...)

Yep, you can get combo'd to death without any chance to counterattack. So knowing that, WHY TAKE THE RISK? Know your limits.

Don't be a reckless idiot luring a dozen mobs with knockdowns/stuns, and you'll be fine. Being good at luring is a key aspect of DBO. If you can't lure who you want where you want, then you'll never be good at end-game PvE either. It's what sets apart the good players from the bad in PvE.

Basically pasted from Daneos' old update thread, but it's a good reference. I still don't understand why SSJ get their hitrate boosted but no longer their success rate, though. Seems very random to leave that out. Or why their defense rate was nerfed so much. Getting knocked down was very hard in retail as SSJ, but here the transformation basically makes no difference.

Oh, you might want to update Kaioken's attack speed. It's 1.5% speed at Kaiokenx1 , 3% speed at Kaiokenx2, and 5% speed when higher than Kaiokenx2. Originally Daneos said it depended on level, but apparently he meant how many times you stack Kaioken, not SP level.

Though I'd prefer 1 month for each cap due to impatience, I'm fine with each one being up to 3 months long. Honestly, Daneos can take as much time as he needs to finish any features he likes. Just don't overextend the fake levelcaps to artificially inflate the game's life. Anyone who loved lvl55/lvl60 will soon discover this isn't it. 6 months or more for each cap is beyond ridiculous, and you can't use balance as an excuse for it. Lvl70 is the cap where we can finally start balancing the game 1 step at a time. So even if it turns out broken initially, it's a matter of time before it's improved. The game can only get more balanced and stable from there.

...well, assuming it isn't just Daneos again making the balancing calls. No offense.

The lvl55 cap will be NOTHING like you remember. This is the lvl70 game. We get skills we never had in retail's 55 cap, stats that don't work the same, skills that are maxed earlier/need more SP points put in them, and many skills which have changed since then. Think Bold Strike, which didn't work this way in the true lvl55 cap. Or Dendes who couldn't heal as strongly because their skills weren't preparing them for lvl70 at the time. Or Fighters who dodged way more in the real lvl55 cap, but won't here because they rely on their lvl70 passive powers+dodge pot now. If this fake lvl55 cap ends up balanced, it'll be by miracle rather than design. The current game is designed with lvl70 in mind. You can act now it'll be like KR's lvl55 days because of the levelcap if it makes you happy, but you'll discover in a week why it won't be.


As for me? I'll likely end up bored in a month after I got everything I need for the future, then quit. A year is a long time, and I wouldn't spend it on an artificial cap that's nothing like retail's, only existing to inflate the game's life. Besides, every moment we spend on lvl55/60, Daneos CAN't balance the game. Lvl55/60 isn't an accurate indicator of what lvl70's like, so every effort spend would be wasted later. Let the cap exist to buy Daneos time for finishing game features, discover for yourself why it's not like you remember, then be happy when lvl70's out because we can finally work on balancing the game with no cap failing to emulate DBO KR to hold us back.

...that said, it can't possibly get balanced worse than lvl45. So rejoice for that!