Posts by sSMETESs

Quote from Iceman

I did get what you said there, but I think that DW as tanker need HOT and that hot of 30 sec, is really good for tanking.

I mean, if tanker dies, it is game over, that is why I suggested it.

One more, PVP wise, that debuff would be abused a lot, 25% reduction on physical chars, would affect them too much.

With shit tons of DW def, he would be hard to kill, that is why, HOT is better and after all, that skill was made to make DW safe.

Why DW need taunts that remove party aggro aka eats it, that is cuz of bad dmg of DW and this way healers will always have 0%.

That is all that DW needs, even if you spam it, it will still eat party aggro, soo this way, DW will keep everyone safe.

KD really isn't needed when you have chaos but if there is need for KD, then on Whirlwind would be good.

I did saw DW in action same geared as me, at least in old DBO since now healing is bugged.

Same upgrade, same type of gear that is %lp,%lp,con with props earrings and prop rings, DW tank better mobs.

Cuz of tons of pdef that he get from warrior passive + master passive + buff and gear itself.

As DW, you need to be greedy with def and I was comparing, he was my friend btw and I played on his account to before.

Thing is, DW does have lower dmg than SK but it can tank way more mobs than SK does and mobs critic well they don't critic much.

DW tanking, skills and healing is way better. Only reason why DW end up with less HP than SK it is cuz of skills that ain't fixed.

Like I said, when those skills be fixed as we suggest, DW will mostly always be at 80% HP.

One more, I will repeat, success rate energy attack skills (big 3 ones), state 2k dmg fixed healing AOE skill, Taunt that taunt and eat party aggro and HOT for DW when his LP be less than 30% and if there is need KD on Whirlwind. Monster tank is born.

PS: Like I said, if we will change skills, we need to see PVP and PVE.

DW with shit tons of anti critic and 25% pattack reduce, success rate skills that fighters can't dodge, healing, and other skills, fighters will die out easy even tho there are critics, but when they be fixed, critics will be too low to kill DW if they critic.

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Oh, I am sorry but I didn't understand what HOT exactly means. My bad.

Could you please give me the full spelling for that, not the abbreviated one? I am assuming that means something like an aggro-eating skill or a self-defense skill. Is that correct? If the former was what you meant, we may not need any other new buffs/skills, like you said. If the latter is the case, we may need to discuss further. But I am also worried a little bit about the former one. It sounds like it can also be effective in a speed party, which will be really awesome. However, the skill might be too powerful imao.

By the way, I think I need to make sure some points in our discussion.

1. Do you know how the aggro system is working in DBOG, NOT how it was in the retail servers? From what you said, I feel like you are a bit mistaken.

2. Have you ever cleared/challenged Bacterian, Kraken, Cell-X, or CCBD 150F or something like that? If you did, you should be able to see what kind of problem you may confront if you play as DW.

Your original post in this thread were saying that DW and SK are different types of tanks, DW is as good as SK, etc. And that is absolutely true for easy dungeons. Easy dungeons can be cleared by any party, to be honest. But, that's not the case for difficult dungeons. There are so many things to consider to clear difficult dungeons. And being a super-tanky tank is not all tank is about (at least in this game). You seem to need to understand that at a deeper level.

Fortunately, now we are on the same page in that we have agreed DW needs an improvement. And your suggestions are great. I want to tell you that I am so happy for that.

Quote from Iceman

1. That taunt, you mean removing 50% of party aggro from all party members, if that is what you think, sure.

This way DW would be true tank, since it eats aggro of party members.

2. It is good as it is, plus I never saw it in any DW build since you have other things to take.

3. Dragon's Pledge - it would be better as HOT for 30 sec. When your HP is below 30%, you heal by 1% or on max level 5% of max HP.

Rest of physical skills, or all others, I would leave as they are since as DW, and thx to Draconic Righteousness, you will go for energy attacks.

As of KD, DW don't need it and if you really want it, get Charging Fist, it is really good KD.

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1. That's not what I meant, but your suggestion sounds better.

2. I used to have it in my build when the punishment was disabled last time. It is indeed good as it is. But unfortunately, you don't seem to understand why I suggested making it AoE (or you did understand but just don't agree with me).

3. I see your point. But again, please consider one more time why I suggested what was said in my former reply.

As for 2 and 3 above, I don't want my DW to be stronger or to get less dmg than now. DW is already strong enough in terms of defense and durability. The point is, again, that it doesn't really help the party be safe. Making DW stronger than it should be is not necessary at all. What we need for DW is skills that make the party safe. Let me emphasize one more time. SK's AoE taunt and particularly, AoE stun, are amazing skills. When his party is in danger, SK can get over the situation by using either of (or both) these two skills. On the other hand, DW is much less effective for the purpose because it can hardly stop mobs attacking other party members. You may think DW still has the AoE taunt. But like I said, in order to taunt the mobs, DW has to dash to his team mates due to the skill's narrow range, and it often results in another dangerous/risky situation since the boss is also following him. Therefore, what I suggested is, since DW and SK must be differentiated and have advantages of their own, give DW a sort of abilities to protect his party more safely than he could now while SK can just stop or taunt the mobs. Do you still think it is too much buffing for DW? You may or may not agree with me. What I have suggested is just some thought, not an absolute answer. I am still very open to discuss further.

As for KD, DW may need it. Why not? It is always good to have it. However, DW already has two KD skills, Charging Fist and Dragon Strike. So, I don't think we should change such that Dragon Strike has KD RP ability from its first grade to save only one SP (that was suggested by someone in this thread, I don't remember sorry). c.f. SK has a great AoE KD skill, but not many people use it (and of course, that is because SK has Violent Strike of which CD is just 10 sec).

Finally, I remember you said SK needed more money to have good enough gears. It depends, actually. You need to understand how powerful skill Violent Strike and Anti-crit buff SK has are. Mobs as wells bosses can crit. Please compare dmg DW and SK get from tons of mobs. And compare the LP left after they killed all the mobs. You may think DW must have more LP left because it has the healing skill, the punishment. But in reality, SK gets lower dmg while it is killing a group of mobs. And you know why; stun 'em, use powerful Self Destruction Wave while the mobs are stunned, and prevent crits from the remaining mobs (if not all of them died from SDW) at the chance by 25% or so. The idea is very simple. Why are turtles not in a dangerous situation in UD3 hard when they have much lower defense than tanks? The same goes to SK, but not to DW. Turtles get nearly zero dmg in UD3 while DW has to use the punishment at least once sometimes twice or more to survive (the loss of tens of thousands LP in total). However, a really well geared SK is as good as turtles in UD3.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying DW has to be improved so it can do whatever turtle/SK can do. No. Never. I am saying all these to tell you that DW and SK are not just different but one is superior over the other as far as party play is concerned.

Quote from Iceman

Cool video mate.

adrian on fire I think I saw you used before scintillation, it should would help you with blocking some skills.

One more, you didn't use not even once roar skill, not even vs fighters, were you easy on them or what?

Cuz roar gives hit rate and critic rate, I bet you would flash them out...

Really good video, I had SM before and I am working on one right now, you just making me play it again.

Thx bro, keep up with this.

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To my knowledge, he is one of the best PvP players in DBOG. He must know everything about SM.

Quote from Aru

i think it's the other way, disabling DP healing:

- IS NOT A TEST, as we don't think the skill needed an individual tweak (disregarding their own skill tree balance and composition) with correct calc (retail), so no reason to limit its features.

- IS NOT A NERF, as we are not in a that stage yet, because the game is still incomplete and before adressing class balance (during which DW should have improvements, in that we all agree, the how is the real question tho...), formulas have to be tweaked...

- Such as DP healing formula, which was bugged and said bug could be abused in certain contexts. UntIl there is a correct calc, the healing was TEMPORARILY DISABLED. Imagine Daneos wasn't able to find proper calculation to fix 1 shot sk's life drain which could have been abused? Should we let the skill in that state until proper Calculation is found or disable it temporarily to avoid abuses?

Hope it s clear now.

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Yes, for those who think it was nerfed, it was not. It has to be disabled. Please understand that everyone.

Improvement of DW is the next step and a different story. And I hope the dev would take it into their consideration when they are ready for that. I understand it must be difficult and take a lot of time and efforts. I can wait just like I have done so far.

Quote from Aru

Hello, we are not nerfing DW because this is only temporal, the skill will be complete whenever Daneos is able to fix it. You can reread my first sentence regarding the difference between testing and nerfing. In the case of DP, disabling the heal isn't a test, it is a temporary situation as the skill calculations are still wrong and affected gameplay. It will be readded once a proper calculation is available. I don't want to revolve more around this please.

The DBOG team reads the forum a lot, and it's difficult to take into consideration all the different input from the community members. Not because they differ in experience: many new players have contributed with amazing input so far. In the end it all comes down to the arguments or reasons behind the comments and how well they are explained.

The input provided by B4D4SS, Ssmetes, Iceman and some others is indeed great (I thank you guys), because they have insight on the class and are providing well-thought posts. It is tough to take into consideration a post which only states "Why nerf nerf and nerf and nerf":
- Their conversation is about the class from a structural point of view, which is based on the state of the class at every stage of the original servers and in the current test server at DBOG. They take into account the class role, the class weaknesses, their skill balance compared to other classes.
- The other kind of post focus on the circumstantial situation, and I can easily tell because they are posted right after the update when DP healing was disabled.

What I think we all have to understand fundamentally is:
1. Development to bring back the game to its original state can be a tedious and sometimes quite slow process.
2. Balancing work is not as easy as just raising some % here and there.

Regards,

Aru :dpeace:

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I completely agree. It must be difficult than we may think.

I think that is because since the recent update the gab between max and min dmg has been reduced.

35m range for DW's AoE taunt would be awesome, but that's too much imo (20-25m should be enough I guess). Like Iceman said (and as we all know), DW and SK must be differentiated. So, here's my suggestions.

1. Draconic Protection: Increase the range of the skill to 25m or something like that (for now, it's 14m if maxed). The duration and CD may need to be adjusted as well (e.g. a little bit longer duration and shorter CD), but not too much. Instead, I suggest 50% increase of diffence on all the party members within the area except DW himself. (I don't want my DW to be immortal. I just want to make my party safer when necessary).

2. Disastrous Blow: make it an AoE skill. The skill is hardly landed on some bosses, but it can land on normal mobs, making the party safer.

3. Dragon's Pledge: Atm, it is literally garbage, and it definitely needs a rework. Make it an AoE debuff such that it decreases phy attack by 25% on 10 mobs within 14m or something like that. Its duration doesn't have to be super long. 20 sec or so should be enough.

DW doesn't really need increased dmg. That's not what it is supposed to have. My suggestion described above is to let us have a choice between DW and SK. That is,

SK: can deal more damage on mobs and bosses, has a wider range of AoE taunt with a great debuff, has an AoE stun, can maintain more aggro on bosses than DW could do.

vs.

DW: has decent dmg but can protect his party safer than it can do now.

The choice between the two is then obvious. The faster/more offensive vs. The safer/more defensive. And the choice will depend on other members' preference. Just thought. Maybe too much buffing for DW. If so, we can still discuss and adjust it in this testing server.

Quote from Iceman

sSMETESs I really do enjoy good discussion with you and trust me, we are on same page with this.

I just do not want to take away true role of DW and that is large group of mobs tanking.

Still, "spamming taunts do nothing", just make all mobs focus on you, taunt, as SK I do that all time when ever I see that someone in my party is in bad position, that is what taunts do, save people (mostly fighters or turtles lol).

Still what got in my eye is "SK can do whatever DW can do, but not vice versa", not true.

SK can't tank large ammount of mobs, for long time, while DW can, that is thing.

DW was made to be tankish version of turtle, but his dmg is reduced cuz he is just too good tank.

Now, DW needs to be edited to be half good as turtle aka (large group killer), that was his role.

Still thx to his tank side, he can be on boss and spam taunts and keep aggro on himself, when aggro go away.

How to help DW, it is really easy, with few skill edits:

1. Dragon's Punishment (based on success rate) - max level, heal 2k per mob fixed with 30 CD and 500 EP. (let them spam)

2. Powerfull Roar - increase range to 35 m, on 25 targets.

3. Energy Siege - Needs to be based on success rate and not hit rate and with no critic 3 - 4k dmg, ofc if you increase wep will be more.

And with Great Defense passive, DW should be decent in dmg making.

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I am also enjoying discussing with you. I could see both of us are on the same page, but we are focusing on different aspects of DW. All that you said are almost correct. And nice suggestions too (although I don't think the punishment has to be modified so).

So, you are talking about what DW can/is supposed to do. Agreed. And I am talking about why it is less popular/prefered than SK.

When all the classes were made at the beginning, the max level was capped at 50. Now we are LV70. As more difficult dungeons will come out in OB, we will see DW has no place in a party for those dungeons.

I am not saying it is impossible for DW to be a member in a party and clear those dungeons. The real thing is, the other members will prefer to have a different tank because DW is not welcomed due to its inefficiency and is like the last resort. That's how it was in retail, and you will see it too in OB. And that's what I and other people are worried about.

Lastly, as for taunt, I said spmmaing it was dangerous because it reduces the duration of the skill and will end up having no effect on a boss with high LP after spamming it 5 times. In short, it is good to spam it for an easy boss but not for a strong boss (the skill may have no effect on the boss when you really need it). Futhermore, as you know, most strong bosses are phy-based. When you as DW marking a boss 1:1 see some ultra mobs spawn near other members in your party and begin attacking them, you may want to use AoE taunt. But since you are far from them and the range of the skill is narrow, you would have to dash to get closer to them in order to taunt the mobs. AND THEN, the boss will follow you while you are maintaining aggro, and it may result in a risky situation. That is not the case for SK because its AoE taunt has the range of 35m. And this is why SK is a boss-marking tank (according to you) that is also better for marking ultra mobs than DW could. Again, I am not saying DW can never do that, but it is much riskier.

In order for a DW to be an exellent tank, the player has to spend a lot of money for boxes and dogi balls while an SK doesn't have to do so. That is because SK's AoE stun (edited from taunt, my bad) has a short CD and you can spam it with low CD on your gears when you feel the party is in danger. Very safe and easy. In order for DW to be so effective like SK, the burden often goes to other members. And that's very critical because that's against the true role of tanks which is supposed to keep the party safe.

I welcome further discussion.

Quote from Iceman

I agree DW is made to be main tank if we will talk about defense.

But it does have PDEF as core def, that means tanking auto attacks than boss MATT skills.

One more, (Check sub - weapon dmg rate please), DW was never made as DPS class, he was there only to tank and deal some of dmg while other DPS classes whipe everything.

DW is made there to help other party members survive, thx to his skills (Dragon's Protection - 1788 pdef and mdef).

With high CD, it can be spammed.

Dragonic Taunt and Powerfull Roar - for mobs and boss aggro (It is spammable).

Energy Siege - I agree, only skill that needs to be buffed a bit, at least 300% energy dmg and be based on success rate.

Demon Wave - needs to deal regular dmg let say 200% energy dmg and DOT.

Still please, do not compare defense tanker and offense tanker, that is big dif.

Everyone pick SK, mostly cuz of Boss tanking, thx to his DOT's and somewhat DOT/HOT Life Steal.

Be honest, if you face Boss that spam KD and confusion and stun all time, what there is use of DW there, just to stand there...

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This is why I said you were correct AND wrong. Let's just assume everything what you said is correct. So what's the result? Why do people choose SK over DW? Only for PvP? No. That's because SK is better than DW in every respect.

Your argument is theoretically/ideally plausible. However, having two tanks in a party is not efficient at all. Furthermore, unlike you have maintained that SK is a boss-tank, SK has more and better skills to fight against mobs (AoE skills) than DW does. Please do not deny this fact. Plus, you seem to have misunderstood about taunt. If you are spamming a taunt skill to maintain aggro, please don't do that. That's a very dangerous idea (I won't explain why). Draconic protection is not as good as you may think. TBH, not practical at all.

So, you are right in that DW and SK are different and must be differentiated. No one would disagree with that. In reality, however, people choose SK over DW because it is way better in all respects. SK can do whatever DW can do, but not vice versa. Why do you not accept the fact?

Quote from B4.DA.$$

1- Agreed.

2- Only in UDs and TMQs, high level dungeons (even UD6) they'd have as much trouble staying alive as any other class. Due to Energy seige, they can aggro a huge amount of mobs and not keep them aggrod for long enough that their HP/Tankiness would even matter.

3- You can't maintain Aggro at all. Your Energy Siege would miss over 75% of the time against bosses. In CC (since its the only high level thing we have atm) around F55, your damage, your tankiness, and your ability to aggro only goes lower. You'd need Foc Pants, Foc Gloves, Foc accessories (at least around 26 foc from them alone), and a Karma FOC buff. DWs have 800 Hitrate, when bosses exceed 1.6K Dodge and have even higher resist.

4- I assume you're mentioning this around the idea of UDs. That's true. In CC and such, as I stated, they'd have a hard time landing it so they cant even steal some time waiting for a Dende to be revived or at least a team mate in general.

Once the punishment gets fixed, I will show you that you're a bit mistaken. Just WM if you see me in game. Your arguments are correct in general but went to an extreme.

2. As for UD6, I can go to the first floor boss Tanta by myself without taking a rest at all. No problem with keeping aggro even in a party. My aggro will always be 100% (not the case for a speed party like I said before).

3&4 Not really. You will see. If you have a turtle in your party, DW can have around 2000 hit rate without wearing FOC jacket or pants.

I am not saying you are completely wrong. I agree with you in many respects but just wanted to say DW is not utter garbage as you may have thought although it definitely needs a rework.

Calm down guys. DW can do his job as a tank in a party if you know how to play it. Let's not deny the fact. The problem is, as everyone knows, DW is like the last resort to be in a party for difficult dungeons.

Let's think about CCBD 50F. Do we really need it? No. What about 70F? Maybe yes, but not necessary. What about 90-100F? Possible, but SK is way better if they need a tank because it has better skills which make the party safer.

Iceman seems to believe DW is supposed to be a mob-killing tank while SK a boss-marking tank. Correct and wrong. According to the original developer, DW was made as the main tank and SK as a sub-tank. No matter what their original intention was, DW cannot be called the main tank. SK can be, at the moment.

I feel like I have to emphasize one more time. The role of tanks is to keep his party safe. In this respect, DW needs a rework as @B4.D4.$$ pointed out. The original developer gave DW immortability (i.e. the punishment), but even the ability is almost useless in party play. DW can survive till the last moment, but it means nothing if all the other members could be in danger and die.

Fact:

1. DW is a farming machine.

2. DW can tank well in party in most dungeons.

3. DW can maintain aggro if you spam enery siege (not the case in a speed party, though).

4. DW hardly die with the punishment if it has 67% CD.

6. However, we don't really need it in a party. Plus, it is always better to have SK than DW if they really need a tank in a party.

DW is not utter garbage. It depends how you use it. Nevertheless, it is 100% true that SK is a better tank for party purposes (and for almost all the other possible purposes, too). That's how it is now.

Quote from Iceman

PS: You people making mistake about PVP, some classes are better in party pvp than 1 on 1 pvp.

Such as plasma and DW.

Plasma is wonderful for party PvP (I am specifically meaning Budokai), but DW is not. I don't know whether you used to play DW in party Budokai in retail, but if you haven't, please do not think DW would be good in party Budokai just because it has incredibly wide attack range and highest defense/LP. For party ranked battles, however, it would be good. For solo PvP? I used to win so many times against good karmas in retail (or at least draw), but since the second-latest update by which reflection can no longer KILL the opponent, I don't think I would win against good karmas in this server.

I respect your opinion Iceman, but I want to add something. When it comes to PvE, DW is hard to kill if well geared. But that's it.

If DW could survive alone till the last moment and every one else dies, he almost failed his job as a tanker. The role of tanker is to keep his party safe. Let's compare DW and SK in this respect.

AoE taunt: SK is 100 times better. No further explanation seems to be needed.

AoE CC: SK has one, but DW doesn't have any. SK in Captain Bacterian, for instance, can stun all the mobs around the boss, making it possible for turtle or other members to kill the mobs in a much safer manner. On the other hand, DW in the same situation, even if very well geared, may die if he uses Energy Siege or AoE taunt. In order to prevent him from being killed, the burden goes to turtle or healer, resulting in a much less safer situation.

Aggro: SK gets more aggro than DW does while fighting against a boss.

As you know, the most important/dangerous moment where we really need a tank is not when we fight against a boss alone. That is the moment in which we fight against a boss AND mobs at the same time.

SK as a tank outclasses DW in almost every respect since it has many skills that make his party safer than DW could.

DW can survive till the last moment. And that's it. You may think DW can kill mobs more easily and faster, but in reality we can do that w/o DW. Plus, SK can do that as well as DW and much more safely; AoE taunt, AoE stun, self destruct wave accompanied by a turtle or some other AoE attack skill, the floor cleared in 10 sec.

My point is, there is no advantage to have a DW in a party instead of SK. DW now is just good for farming (soloing) and easy dungeons. The best tank (that's what it was supposed to be) is almost useless/worse to be in party plays.

Nevertheless, I will be playing DW in OB too no matter what. I am not complaining but just telling you about how it is now for low level/average DW players.

Quote from Flume

The problem is that DW CANT mantain aggro as well as SK. Even tho the Pve one is the DW. And i do not complain about punishment but dragons pledge, disastrous blow, ep useless passive, cyclone and whirlwind stupid damage. You just cant go phys Dw bc of that. Where is the variability at? The taunt is not even that big nor that long to be good, IMO, SK aggro buff should be from DW, nice that you can resist attacks but if they dont focus on you whats the point?

Very good point. I agree with you and Sheen in terms of the variability and the comparison between DW and SK. It is true that you can get aggro by spamming Energy Siege, but it is ridiculous that that is nearly the only skill effective to maintain aggro. This in turn means CD is the only choice, making all the other gearing almost useless. No variability: easy to play, but much less fun. No valance: much less popularity of the class. Pledge is also a problem, but I understand it must be hard to make it work right. Can only hope that will work in OB.

I indeed love DW. But EP healing as well as LP healing from the skill is too much. Plus, EP is not DW's biggest problem, either. You can handle the problem by yourself without fixing the skill (I won't explain how). I do agree that the skill must be based on state dmg, but I don't see any point for no need to upgrade claw only for the healing purpose. I don't mind Draconic Protection costing 4000 LP, either. It doesn't really matter. All you need is CD, at least 63%, at best 67-8%, to be a good tank. In most cases in any dungeon or on field, you don't use any other attack skills than Energy Siege.

I do agree, however, with SHEEN that DW needs buff(s)/skill(s) that have better practical effects. That is not just because I love/main DW, but because of balancing purposes. If this is truly a TEST server and we agree DW is one of the least-popular classes, why don't we test to make it the best tank in the game as that's what it is supposed to be?

In comparison between DW and some other (possible) tanks, it is not even arguable that DW doesn't have advantages to play for a tank in a party. DW can indeed tank if you have good enough CD. No question. HOWEVER, people don't want to have it in a party just because having a different tank is always better/easier/faster to clear dungeons. If SK's AoE taunt has a way much wider range PLUS energy attack decrease by 25%, why not 25% decrease of physical attack for DW's narrower-ranged AoE taunt? Why not boost up defense by 50-100% from the Protection skill, for example? Why not increase the duration of taunt skills if other classes have a longer duration? Why not charge RP when using a certain skill so that it can use an RP effect to tank safely in CCBD even when SM has the skill for PvP purpose?

I am telling you guys this because as I see it many people seem to believe this server has to be the same as retail as much as possible when they are emphasizing this is a TEST server and balancing classes is one of their top priorities. Do you really think DW will become popular in OB? I believe it is very unlikely. This is a test sever.

*Please do not complain about Draconic Punishment having been temporarily disabled. It was bugged, guys. We should wait until it will get hopefully fixed soon.

If what you said is true, I would call it a bug. For your question, +8 and +11 make a huge difference in dmg. I was wondering if the mobs' property was also controlled. Did you test it while killing the same monsters or different ones?

Quote from UPAL

In the version Taiwan, recovered about 15-20 k, did not heal to 100% the LP, but helped, the DW was the best farmer

Oh, in the KR version, it healed over 30k. Good to know about how it was in the TW one.

Quote from Iceman

It never deal 20k on that healing skill. Never.

It was always around 5k the best, maybe sometime abit higher.

He meant the 'total' amount of 'healing' from the skill, not the dmg on one mob.

FYI: Even in retal, the amount of healing from more than eight mobs was beyond 30k.

The skill has been temporarily diabled, not nerfed. As others pointed out, the skill was bugged, and that's why. It is unfortunate I play DW only atm, but I understand that the skill has to be disabled. Hope Daneos will get it fixed soon.

What is 'BIDS' abbreviated for?