New transformations

  • Are you seriously connecting real life situations with manga and anime? If it's sarcasm, you're a genius, if it's not, then I stand with Blazing Barrager on this one.
    As a Human in Dragon Ball, you simply possess Saiyan Blood, as little as it is, it's there. Never in Dragon Ball, even Dragon Ball GT, it was clearly stated that diluted Saiyan blood would make the Super Saiyan transformation impossible to achieve(if there is, then you all can punch me in the face). The Pan excuse is useless, we all saw Vegeta Jr and Goku Jr turn Super Saiyan without sweat after unlocking the transformation. As macdaddymario stated though, it's still a video game, which means they MUST put aside part of the lore to balance out things. So yeah, becoming stronger, it will always be about training and experience. The entire Dragon Ball series is mostly based on the fact that Goku has to train and get stronger to fight stronger enemies as the whole point to his character IS NOT being a freaking hero but finding the best opponent. That, unless an author takes advantage of the classic plot device of the "gifted" just like Toriyama did with Gohan and later with Goten and Trunks.


    To me, it all depends on the race: an example would be the fact that in the game, Namekians at the same level as humans in their base form will always have higher power levels, pretty much just like Piccolo(before Super) didn't need any kind of transformation because, as a namekian, he could control his Ki much better than Humans and Saiyans in their base form.


    You need to always keep in mind that Humans were never that strong to begin with(that's the whole point of Goku, a low class Saiyan, sent to Earth to destroy it), and neither were they able to control Ki before Master Mutaito founded his school. Where as Namekians and Saiyans had great Ki potential from the start, proven by the fact that Dende clearly states that they learn to fly since childhood. Majins? They are Buu's offsprings, of course they have great Ki potential.
    That single fact should explain why the SSJ is precluded to Humans in DBO unless Shenron awakens the power inside of them, as Blazing Barrager said: "We are unlocking the hidden potential that still exists despite no longer possessing the power it was known for".

    Well that's only half right in the lore. After the manga and Goku's death in Age 801 (most likely by old age since he and Vegeta left Earth to have one more fight and were never seen again), Gohan released a book called "Groundbreaking Science" that explained the fundamentals of ki to the Earth's population. I believe it wasn't that Humans could control ki to the same level as the other races, but simply because they were ignorant about it (Mr. Satan aka Hercule didn't make things better). Now granted they aren't as "good" with it as Saiyans and Namekians, but that doesn't mean they were weak. Tien is a prime example of this when he was using Shin Kienzon (Neo Tri-Beam) to stall Semi-Perfect Cell. Despite being heavily outclassed in power, Tien was still able to perform a feat on an opponent who was stronger than a normal, untrained Super Saiyan.


    Now the issue with Humans in DBO is the fact that our CaCs are descendants of the Son/Brief family. As such, while our CaCs Saiyan blood is pretty much gone, the potential that goes with it remains and simply requires unlocking it. This was something that Dende was actually counting on when he reactivated the DBs and made more of them while placing huge restrictions on what the user can wish for.

  • We saw Goku/Vegeta Jr. do that in GT. Putting aside personal feelings for that series, DBO is based strictly off the manga. Anything that was anime only is excluded. So you can't use that for lore reference purposes in DBO related content.


    So all we have to go on, is Pan at the end of Z, in terms of what happens the more and more diluted the Saiyan blood gets vs potential of lost power. And it's a perfect example of why the training is what matters in the time of DBO, and not the transformation it self.

  • Well that's only half right in the lore. After the manga and Goku's death in Age 801 (most likely by old age since he and Vegeta left Earth to have one more fight and were never seen again), Gohan released a book called "Groundbreaking Science" that explained the fundamentals of ki to the Earth's population. I believe it wasn't that Humans could control ki to the same level as the other races, but simply because they were ignorant about it (Mr. Satan aka Hercule didn't make things better). Now granted they aren't as "good" with it as Saiyans and Namekians, but that doesn't mean they were weak. Tien is a prime example of this when he was using Shin Kienzon (Neo Tri-Beam) to stall Semi-Perfect Cell. Despite being heavily outclassed in power, Tien was still able to perform a feat on an opponent who was stronger than a normal, untrained Super Saiyan.
    Now the issue with Humans in DBO is the fact that our CaCs are descendants of the Son/Brief family. As such, while our CaCs Saiyan blood is pretty much gone, the potential that goes with it remains and simply requires unlocking it. This was something that Dende was actually counting on when he reactivated the DBs and made more of them while placing huge restrictions on what the user can wish for.


    That doesn't disprove my point. I never said Humans couldn't learn to use Ki with the same efficiency, I simply stated that, from what we know about the Dragon Ball lore in general, Humans were never gifted in terms of Ki usage to begin with, we would've seen some Humans actually break through their limits if that was true, yet they never reached the level of power of Saiyans,Namekians and other alien races. I accept the point about Tien, but since in the Daizenshuu it is stated that he is a descendant of an ancient alien race himself, I can't fully believe it, as it makes him compared even more with our Humans in DBO; not only that, you always need to keep in mind that Dragon Ball is a work of art, and to me, Tien's Shin Kikohoo on Semi-Perfect Cell, as badass and beautiful as it was, was fanservice, I may be wrong, but that's my opinion(he got one-kicked by Buu without problems, later in the Buu saga). Gohan simply gave the Humans the means to use Ki in the most efficient way possible by introducing them to the "alien level" of Ki knowledge, where as before, Ki on Earth was mostly limited to fighters and monks like Muten and the Orin Temple. That is later supported by Pan's TV show, and Tien's and Krillin's new schools.


    Game balancing aside, it would actually make sense for Dende to put limits on the Dragon Balls, it was a security measure, what would happen if the Red Pants of the Time Breakers were to find the Dragon Balls?




    We saw Goku/Vegeta Jr. do that in GT. Putting aside personal feelings for that series, DBO is based strictly off the manga. Anything that was anime only is excluded. So you can't use that for lore reference purposes in DBO related content.
    So all we have to go on, is Pan at the end of Z, in terms of what happens the more and more diluted the Saiyan blood gets vs potential of lost power. And it's a perfect example of why the training is what matters in the time of DBO, and not the transformation it self.


    I still don't see the point. At the end of Z, it is never stated, manga or anime, that Pan diluted Saiyan blood can't make her achieve the transformation, she is simply never shown to use/achieve it yet. Hell, she even punches Goten in the face. And we all loved that.

  • Guys, there is no further point discussing about saiyan blood percentage, how much training you need and all that logic crap. A lot of things in video games/movies don't make sense. If you want to waste dragon balls and level up to level 40 just to achieve skill that isn't very useful and not worth the effort, then keep talking about that bullsh*t...

  • Guys, there is no further point discussing about saiyan blood percentage, how much training you need and all that logic crap. A lot of things in video games/movies don't make sense. If you want to waste dragon balls and level up to level 40 just to achieve skill that isn't very useful and not worth the effort, then keep talking about that bullsh*t...

    I never intended to create a discussion out of it, I was just stating my opinion, like everyone else I suppose. Plus, I like to discuss those sort of things, there's no need to call it bullcrap disrepecting everyone's idea.


    While I may agree on the point on the fact that achieving it through the Dragon Balls is a waste(gameplay-wise, not story-wise), I really don't understand what's the problem. SSJ is good as it is, it needs no change, just balances, more transformations won't solve the problems, Story-wise and gameplay-wise.

  • I never intended to create a discussion out of it, I was just stating my opinion, like everyone else I suppose. Plus, I like to discuss those sort of things, there's no need to call it bullcrap disrepecting everyone's idea.
    While I may agree on the point on the fact that achieving it through the Dragon Balls is a waste(gameplay-wise, not story-wise), I really don't understand what's the problem. SSJ is good as it is, it needs no change, just balances, more transformations won't solve the problems, Story-wise and gameplay-wise.

    Well I was going to do a suggestion on transformations that would expand the system and such. Probably be an interesting read for you. :>

  • I never intended to create a discussion out of it, I was just stating my opinion, like everyone else I suppose. Plus, I like to discuss those sort of things, there's no need to call it bullcrap disrepecting everyone's idea.
    While I may agree on the point on the fact that achieving it through the Dragon Balls is a waste(gameplay-wise, not story-wise), I really don't understand what's the problem. SSJ is good as it is, it needs no change, just balances, more transformations won't solve the problems, Story-wise and gameplay-wise.

    Pros of SSJ:
    - Looks cool
    - Makes you a little stronger


    Cons of SSJ:
    - 1 hour cooldown
    - Can't use buffs
    - Drains EP


    I'd like to change cooldown to 15-20 minutes and make it levelable so the skill will get stronger and gonna drain less EP with each skill point added to it.

  • Are you seriously connecting real life situations with manga and anime? If it's sarcasm, you're a genius, if it's not, then I stand with Blazing Barrager on this one.
    As a Human in Dragon Ball, you simply possess Saiyan Blood, as little as it is, it's there. Never in Dragon Ball, even Dragon Ball GT, it was clearly stated that diluted Saiyan blood would make the Super Saiyan transformation impossible to achieve(if there is, then you all can punch me in the face). The Pan excuse is useless, we all saw Vegeta Jr and Goku Jr turn Super Saiyan without sweat after unlocking the transformation. As macdaddymario stated though, it's still a video game, which means they MUST put aside part of the lore to balance out things. So yeah, becoming stronger, it will always be about training and experience. The entire Dragon Ball series is mostly based on the fact that Goku has to train and get stronger to fight stronger enemies as the whole point to his character IS NOT being a freaking hero but finding the best opponent. That, unless an author takes advantage of the classic plot device of the "gifted" just like Toriyama did with Gohan and later with Goten and Trunks.


    To me, it all depends on the race: an example would be the fact that in the game, Namekians at the same level as humans in their base form will always have higher power levels, pretty much just like Piccolo(before Super) didn't need any kind of transformation because, as a namekian, he could control his Ki much better than Humans and Saiyans in their base form.


    You need to always keep in mind that Humans were never that strong to begin with(that's the whole point of Goku, a low class Saiyan, sent to Earth to destroy it), and neither were they able to control Ki before Master Mutaito founded his school. Where as Namekians and Saiyans had great Ki potential from the start, proven by the fact that Dende clearly states that they learn to fly since childhood. Majins? They are Buu's offsprings, of course they have great Ki potential.
    That single fact should explain why the SSJ is precluded to Humans in DBO unless Shenron awakens the power inside of them, as Blazing Barrager said: "We are unlocking the hidden potential that still exists despite no longer possessing the power it was known for".

    Why wouldn't I? Humans in DBO are humans, humans irl are humans. However you're not getting my point, the thing is that you can't compare the levels of the Super Saiyan Human with the actual pure Super Saiyan. No matter how hard you train, you-cannot-change-what-you-are. Period, no matter how hard you train you will not surpass something that's meant to be stronger than you, that's meant to be the original, a human can't surpass a saiyan in IT'S OWN ASPECTS, you can't surpass an actual Super Saiyan with a Human Super Saiyan. That's that.

  • Why wouldn't I? Humans in DBO are humans, humans irl are humans. However you're not getting my point, the thing is that you can't compare the levels of the Super Saiyan Human with the actual pure Super Saiyan. No matter how hard you train, you-cannot-change-what-you-are. Period, no matter how hard you train you will not surpass something that's meant to be stronger than you, that's meant to be the original, a human can't surpass a saiyan in IT'S OWN ASPECTS, you can't surpass an actual Super Saiyan with a Human Super Saiyan. That's that.


    Because in Dragon Ball, Humans can shoot energy blasts out of their hands, that's why. You can do that in real life too? Putting silly things aside, why are you so fixed on the point that Human Super Saiyan can't compare to Saiyan Super Saiyan? Even an hybrid can, through train and experience, perfect the whole transformation, Gohan and Future Trunks did. It has never been said, NEVER, anywhere, that hybrids are weaker than purebloods in Dragon Ball. Hell, with Goten and Trunks it's almost like breeding makes it even stronger, so no period at all. The only reason why Humans in DBO need the Dragon Balls to use SSJ is because of obvious gameplay reasons, they are nonetheless more Humans than Saiyans, and that's why, while they can achieve Super Saiyan, the only weakness is that they can't access any of the other forms(or at least, they shouldn't, DBO died before we could see how things would've gone). It isn't that different from Gohan when he awakened his true potential through the Old Kaioshin, it's the same concept.
    You also need to keep in mind that Goku and Vegeta(the pureblood Saiyans that achieved the most) are gifted on their own, they had to work through abnormal circumstances to achieve that kind of power: they fought the strongest being in their galaxy, Freeza; they fought the strongest artificial being, Cell; They fought the pure essence of evil, Majin Buu.

  • I still don't see the point. At the end of Z, it is never stated, manga or anime, that Pan diluted Saiyan blood can't make her achieve the transformation, she is simply never shown to use/achieve it yet. Hell, she even punches Goten in the face. And we all loved that.

    We can safely assume that Pan has been being trained by Goku, unlike Goten at his younger age. Goten became an SSJ training with his mother, by accident. So for Pan to not be an SSJ at her age, yet clearly be stronger than Goten, trained by Goku, adds credibility to the fact that a more diluted Saiyan bloodline = less ability to use the transformation.


    Meanwhile, as you said, we all know Goten can become a SSJ by that point, yet Pan beats him. Going to further add evidence on the side of the debate where training > a transformation. Hell, all of Super up to this point has gone to show this very thing itself. They don't use the higher levels of SSJ when in a serious fight, and instead focus on training in their base and SSJ forms.



    Except with the right gear and using the right buffs before you transform, you can bring the cooldown of the skill to under 20 minutes. Don't know why you assume you can't use buffs, since most of the buffs clearly state "can be used in SSJ". The EP drain is what makes it balanced. As it stands, a Turtle Hermit can stay in SSJ forever. A reduction in the drain would totally break Fighters and Swordmasters. One has a stupid high attack speed, and the other can crit you 3 times... 4 if you're lucky, and the fight is over.

  • Stop trying to make SSJ to be broken, holy sh!t. There's already items that recover EP and items/skills/gear that already improve cooldown.
    Just stop it.

  • You're again missing the whole point, hybrids have 50% Saiyan Blood, NOT 0.001% like humans do, even being able to go Super Saiyan is a miracle with that percent, and you of course can't compare it to the 100% Saiyan Blood Super Saiyan, it doesn't make any sense at all. Of course a pure Super Saiyan Saiyan would be stronger than a human with 0.001% Saiyan Blood Super Saiyan.

  • You're again missing the whole point, hybrids have 50% Saiyan Blood, NOT 0.001% like humans do, even being able to go Super Saiyan is a miracle with that percent, and you of course can't compare it to the 100% Saiyan Blood Super Saiyan, it doesn't make any sense at all. Of course a pure Super Saiyan Saiyan would be stronger than a human with 0.001% Saiyan Blood Super Saiyan.

    Proof. Give us proof that's how it works. If you don't have proof, then what you're saying is complete speculation.

  • You're again missing the whole point, hybrids have 50% Saiyan Blood, NOT 0.001% like humans do, even being able to go Super Saiyan is a miracle with that percent, and you of course can't compare it to the 100% Saiyan Blood Super Saiyan, it doesn't make any sense at all. Of course a pure Super Saiyan Saiyan would be stronger than a human with 0.001% Saiyan Blood Super Saiyan.

    Definition of Hybrid: "bred from two distinct breeds, varieties, species, or genera". I'm not missing the point, I'm saying that YOUR point is not supported by anything but conjecture. Whatever it's 0.50% or 0.001%(by the way that's not accurate, there's no percentage in the Dragon Ball Online guide book, as far as I know), you still have Saiyan blood. Thus, you can achieve SSJ. And that's a period.

  • Stop trying to make SSJ to be broken, holy sh!t. There's already items that recover EP and items/skills/gear that already improve cooldown.Just stop it.

    Broken is a severe overestimation on SSJ (or all the transformations for that matter). By PvP standards, the transformations are more of an "emergency" power-up than anything, especially in Budokai. Great Namek in particular is useful for winning an HP tie when you desperately need that win. Likewise, SSJ and Kaio-Ken are used for emergency situations where you find yourself in need of a boost to score that crucial win.
    As for your argument, EP recovery is restricted to items as recovery effects are severally reduced when in battle and you would need a huge amount of CD to get the transformation down to at least 20 minutes.

  • Broken is a severe overestimation on SSJ (or all the transformations for that matter). By PvP standards, the transformations are more of an "emergency" power-up than anything, especially in Budokai. Great Namek in particular is useful for winning an HP tie when you desperately need that win. Likewise, SSJ and Kaio-Ken are used for emergency situations where you find yourself in need of a boost to score that crucial win.As for your argument, EP recovery is restricted to items as recovery effects are severally reduced when in battle and you would need a huge amount of CD to get the transformation down to at least 20 minutes.

    I did say that there's already items that recover EP. My rant was that this guy just wants SSJ to be overpowered and be a "ill turn ssj so i can win every match" type of buff. People use Kaioken indiscriminately on normal PvP, combine that with SSJ and you just made a broken one sided fight. There's not such thing as "emergency" power-ups, when they activate the power up right away at the start of the fight.

  • I did say that there's already items that recover EP. My rant was that this guy just wants SSJ to be overpowered and be a "ill turn ssj so i can win every match" type of buff. People use Kaioken indiscriminately on normal PvP, combine that with SSJ and you just made a broken one sided fight. There's not such thing as "emergency" power-ups, when they activate the power up right away at the start of the fight.

    Something tells me you haven't done enough PvP to back that argument up.

  • Proof. Give us proof that's how it works. If you don't have proof, then what you're saying is complete speculation

    To be fair to him, I already offered an example of where credibility for that overall idea comes from, but if we were all being honest, it's pure speculation on both sides of the fence.


    There's no canon example of anyone with less than 50% Saiyan blood being able to transform, and in DBO you have to make a wish to Shenron to unlock that latent power. And at the same time, there is no canon evidence to the contrary.


    To whoever of was that said genetics don't work that way, we know. But Goten and Trunks becoming SSJ in the main timeline, at the age they do, lend credibility to the (albeit) silly theory that as Goku and Vegeta were stronger when they were conceived (in the main timeline, since Trunks doesn't transform in his timeline till he's already a teenager), they ended up stronger at birth.

  • The last reply was more than 365 days ago, this thread is most likely obsolete. It is recommended to create a new thread instead.

Participate now!

Don’t have an account yet? Register yourself now and be a part of our community!