The huge issue with Movement Speed on Majin Spin

    For some reason people took this as me complaining the Majin Spins got buffed. To all of you who did......

    YOU COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT.

    I didn't think a buff was necessary, but I'm indifferent to that. What I'm AGAINST is movement speed being the trigger. You're encouraging attack speed parties even more because of this, the Poko+Karma combination. THAT's the issue. Why do people love twisting a discussion into something it's not?

    Quote from Howlett

    The problem of the majority of the Community (Martial Artists) is to create a PVP character and then complain that they can't party in PVE content.

    1: There's no PvP/PvE distinction with classes. Most top PvP classes....Ultimates, Karmas, SKs, are ALL the characters you'd want to take to CC150 as well. Dende, the ultimate PvE class? Great at PvP, ESPECIALLY Party PvP. So that's a garbage argument.

    2: Martial Artists are the first class presented to you. Most people being Saiyan fans are going to pick it just because they love DBZ or wanna be like Goku/Vegeta. How are they SUPPOSED to feel about being locked to lvl70 PvP, which they would've been just as good at if they just picked an SK or Karma?

    Quote from Tempest

    Aligning movement speed to effect spin is a small minor tweak/adjustment, and is not considered a huge issue. It hasn't drastically impacted PVP or PVE, the update just helps mighty majins deal a little extra damage for those who choose to wear movement speed gear.

    You mean it helps them deal up to 102% more damage if they've got a Poko, Karma, Movement Speed potion, and Speed Dogi? Did you mean to mention that a single lvl45 Majin could annihilate all of UD3's first floor enemies in a single spin with a Karma+Poko before this update? Riiight, my bad. Sorry to imply it wasn't a tiny lil' tweak~

    ...lol, it's not even the buff itself I'm trying to argue with, I'm mostly cool with that. But it's funny how desperately you're trying to underplay this. Can we double a Fighter's needle damage next if they stack movement speed? Just a small minor tweak, right~? 8o (...that's a sarcastic joke, dimwits.)

    Quote from Dendeee

    It doesnt increase attack power. It increases spin speed .-.

    Why do ppl have to complain about unnecessary things instead of things that actually need to be discussed. Don't go making threads about every little update. Make a normal thread discussing how the game should be balanced in general.

    Technicalities. Whether you attack twice as hard or twice as often, the result's the same, you do 2x damage.

    Also, this has EVERYTHING to do with balance. Encouraging only the Dende+Poko+Karma+Buffer party is terrible for PvE balance. We should encourage ALL CLASSES to be viable in party combinations, not just 1 specific combination of subclasses. The way DBOG is going, we're gonna see NOTHING but that one party combination, plus either a Turtle or an SK, depending on how OP the Poko is. This is a humongous issue affecting everyone who's not part of these 6 sub-classes....classes who are ALL great at PvP too, Pokos excluded. No matter how you twist things, that will remain an issue forever until something is done.

    So what you are effectively against is buff synergy? Welcome to Dragon Ball Online, or MMO's in general, where Buffs can increase the effective power of a class that is not in their skill set.


    Buff synergy for example:

    • FN6JdLS.png  + lUenvrP.png  Are both two buffs that work exceptionally well for Fighters 11_small.png who choose to run a dex/crit based gear.
    • gbTzyTE.png + piXgpCv.png Both stack well for shadow knights 19_small.png who run LP%/properties gear.
    • v7yE4OC.png + RY9Q77x.png Both are buffs that work in synergy for plasmas 16_small.png who run energy crit based gear.


    And now your concern is:


    • XjpzEqQ.png + aArBmkp.png That are buffs that will work in well with mighty majins (more specifically, ultimate majins 15_small.png) that run movement speed gear?


    You do realize that you are one of the only members who is going frantic over movement speed gear making spin a little more viable and giving the skill/class more mobility.


    Not to mention:

    I have no problem with the update.....but i do understand what he's saying and i don't think much others do. He's saying that with the update, there are just more reasons to go full speed party than before...a.k.a indirectly promoting a speed party from manditory karma, poko, dende to karma, poko, dende and buffer. For those that say this was manditory before, I know this...but just not there is MORE reason to go with that. As an ulti main the update doesnt affect me negatively, but i do agree that for other classes, there will be complaining at the 70 cap.

    Anyway...i dont vote for the change back cuz buffer main :3 But i do agree it would be nice for other classes to have roles (sadly i have no suggestions yet)

    EchoSon You're also missing a valid point, speed parties already heavily excluded Fighters/Swordsman, even in retail where spins were completely useless.


    Only way MAs will be taken in parties in 70 cap is if karma and poko speed buffs are unstackable. But that also brings other problems like how 70 cap PvE takes too long without speed so that's not a very simple change and would need major adjustments to PvE in general.

    You're missing the point again. No, there's no argument against buff synergy. It's the fact that this specific buff synergy, KARMA + POKO (which is already arguably the most OP combination in the game since they make speed parties) becomes even MORE ridiculously wanted. There's barely any reason to take anything else with this. As people say, turtles? PFFFF, who needs those, am I right?


    Optimal party, I can see it now; Karma, Poko, Dende, Ulti and an SK. Classes that are all godly at PVP as well - and human classes get the absolute shaft as a result of this mindset.


    Also, it's funny because it's not just a "little" more viable, they can replace turtles pretty much altogether now because of how crazy the boost is - and there's no reason to take a turtle now in parties since, hey, they cover both massive group damage AND buffs at the same time... turtle only does one, maybe a little better, but with no ability to buff.


    :thinking:

    Are you....selectively choosing parts you want to hear, or did you COMPLETELY forget why Pokos+Karmas are an issue?

    Since we're in grade school apparently....parties with speed weapons and the Karma+Poko duo are ATTACK SPEED PARTIES. Everyone in this party does WAY more 1-on-1 damage than they could ever do with any skill. This efficiently turns every class in the game into a DPS, while still retaining their tank/healer/support role. These parties are non-arguably the BEST for clearing anything safely and efficiently, from Cell-X to even CC150. With this update, you just FURTHER encouraged everyone to use that exact team because now they buff a buffer's spin as well, which is any buffer's ultimate skill.

    I'm saying if you're going to buff Majin spins, make it stack with Kaioken, let it crit, and/or give it an RP power/duration up ability. There were infinite ways to make spins stronger, and you chose the absolute worst possible method to do so. DBOG will only get Dende+Poko+Karma+Ultimate parties until you guys take action. It doesn't matter how many alternative party proposals you make, nor how many Ultimate mains disagree because they mistakenly think I'm trying to take their buff away, nothing changes that fact.


    Also, who thinks Plasma+Grand Chef+DEX Fighter is a great idea for PvE?? A Chef's greatest buff is the CON % boost, which DEX Fighters don't synergize with. Plus, DEX is garbage for PvE. Nobody worth their salt brings DEX to an out-of-their-league dungeon. This is common sense.

    Quote from emmanu500

    you're smart enough to know that it does not matter if it hurts more or not, the buffers will continue at the party

    You wanna shout from the rooftops how you missed the point next, or are the forums enough for you? Perhaps you wanna rant at me next how buffers deserved a buff and to be in more parties or something. Try re-reading the first post. Maaaybe you'll find out this isn't about buffers, no matter how much dimwits here are trying to twist this into "EchoSon's bitching about buffers getting buffed."

    Quote from Sirab

    EchoSon You're also missing a valid point, speed parties already heavily excluded Fighters/Swordsman, even in retail where spins were completely useless.


    Only way MAs will be taken in parties in 70 cap is if karma and poko speed buffs are unstackable. But that also brings other problems like how 70 cap PvE takes too long without speed so that's not a very simple change and would need major adjustments to PvE in general.

    1: That's no excuse to worsen the issue and buff this party combination even more. How is "They were shit back then, so it's fine if they're even more shit now." a valid point?? Is it the bias of being an Ultimate yourself so it doesn't affect you, or am I missing something HUGE that totally makes half of DBOG's classes not being include-able a non-issue?

    2; Spins were weak at high-end stuff, though they worked fine for farming, and buffers were viable anyhow for CC150. That said, I'm STILL okay with a buff regardless, this is simply the wrong way to do it. Even you who complained about attack speed before should understand why the spin needed to be buffed in a different way than THIS.

    3: It's an easy choice. Should dungeons take less time to spam, or should more classes and thus players be dungeon-viable? More drops for 1 particular group of people, or less drops for that 1 particular group but more drops for all players in general? There's really no picking the former option without coming across as biased.

    Quote from EchoSon

    1: That's no excuse to worsen the issue and buff this party combination even more. How is "They were shit back then, so it's fine if they're even more shit now." a valid point?? Is it the bias of being an Ultimate yourself so it doesn't affect you, or am I missing something HUGE that totally makes half of DBOG's classes not being include-able a non-issue?

    2; Spins were weak at high-end stuff, though they worked fine for farming, and buffers were viable anyhow for CC150. That said, I'm STILL okay with a buff regardless, this is simply the wrong way to do it. Even you who complained about attack speed before should understand why the spin needed to be buffed in a different way than THIS.

    3: It's an easy choice. Should dungeons take less time to spam, or should more classes and thus players be dungeon-viable? More drops for 1 particular group of people, or less drops for that 1 particular group but more drops for all players in general? There's really no picking the former option without coming across as biased.

    1. You're missing my point again, removing the movement speed% dmg effect from spins wont change anything, your Fighter won't even be a consideration for a floor 150 run regardless sadly. Thats not being biased that is a fact just look at retail 70 cap.


    2. I am against speed %, but whats nerfing a spin going to do? People will still do speed parties. Also this may not be a direct buff but this is also buffing GC's, let them have a damn buff already.


    3. Do you play this game? Have fun doing CCBD 91 - 150 with no speed%, that is beyond god tier levels of cancerous stress. Maybe if Daneos added floor 121 & 141 tickets it wouldnt be too bad and since floor 145 has the hardest boss I dont see why the hell not. And Kraken/Cell X had like 0% chance of dropping an earring before POB shut down, there needs to be major changes to PvE period.

    Quote from Sirab

    1. You're missing my point again, removing the movement speed% dmg effect from spins wont change anything, your Fighter won't even be a consideration for a floor 150 run regardless sadly. Thats not being biased that is a fact just look at retail 70 cap.


    2. I am against speed %, but whats nerfing a spin going to do? People will still do speed parties. Also this may not be a direct buff but this is also buffing GC's, let them have a damn buff already.


    3. Do you play this game? Have fun doing CCBD 91 - 150 with no speed%, that is beyond god tier levels of cancerous stress. Maybe if Daneos added floor 121 & 141 tickets it wouldnt be too bad and since floor 145 has the hardest boss I dont see why the hell not. And Kraken/Cell X had like 0% chance of dropping an earring before POB shut down, there needs to be major changes to PvE period.

    1. ....and? That should stop us from taking 1 step at a time in the right direction? Or did you change your mind and love attack speed parties since you happen to be part of 'em anyway? This change encourages attack speed parties more, therefore it must be undone. It's as simple as that.

    2. I never suggested a nerf, nor was it ever about nerfing the spin. You and everyone else here need to get that out of your head. I suggested alternative better ways to buff a spin WITHOUT using movement speed. Hell, buff the spin to rotate 70~80% faster at all times if you must. That's also stupidly OP, but at least it doesn't force attack speed parties anymore. (I don't recommend that, but I'd take it over what we have now. )

    Also, don't hide behind Grand Chefs. If this update was meant for them it'd only apply to the ball skill. But Ultimates got buffed too, so people will STILL take an Ultimate over a Chef. Don't pretend like I wouldn't grant Chefs buffs if it was down to me.

    3. That's a different issue that I agree need revamps, hopefully something simple like giving players 20% extra offensive props on CC boss floors if the Poko+Karma combination gets nerfed. But it's a FAR less important issue than half of DBO's classes being obsolete.

    I agree with you. The game has 12 subclasses, and less than half of them are META for the PvE end game content.


    Karma, SK, Ult, Dende are basically good at everything. While classes like DW, Plasma, Sword, Fighter, Grand Chef are good only for some things, ie are well restricted to the content of the game. I never got a chance to see someone calling Plasma, Sword or Fighter to party in global chat. And this is being written by someone who has a SK as main.


    I do not say to nerf the usefulness of Dende, Ultimate, SK, Karma and Poko. I say to make the other classes less restricted in the same content stirring with speed or giving some other way.

    Im not even going to be maining Ulti for long and most definitly not in 70 cap so nice try. I dont even look forward to 70 cap. Sounds like you're just crying because no one is taking your Fighter into parties, Fighters need a buff in PvE in general, just have to wait for it.


    Also Fighters arent as bad in PvE as they in 70 cap right now, sure you're prolly not going to be taken in by randoms but try to get known in the PvE community, prove yourself, build trust, and you will be whispered by PvE teams.

    Quote from EchoSon

    1. ....and? That should stop us from taking 1 step at a time in the right direction? Or did you change your mind and love attack speed parties since you happen to be part of 'em anyway? This change encourages attack speed parties more, therefore it must be undone. It's as simple as that.

    you are complaining

    Quote from EchoSon

    I never suggested a nerf, nor was it ever about nerfing the spin. You and everyone else here need to get that out of your head. I suggested alternative better ways to buff a spin WITHOUT using movement speed. Hell, buff the spin to rotate 70~80% faster at all times if you must. That's also stupidly OP, but at least it doesn't force attack speed parties anymore. (I don't recommend that, but I'd take it over what we have now. )

    I could stupidly agree with you, but you should know that this would not change anything, the party speed will continue to opt for a buffers



    Quote from Sirab

    Im not even going to be maining Ulti for long and most definitly not in 70 cap so nice try. I dont even look forward to 70 cap. Sounds like you're just crying because no one is taking your Fighter into parties, Fighters need a buff in PvE in general, just have to wait for it.

    this is true I think you should leave this topic and continue with another, to suggest some change in humans in which they can serve in a party EchoSon


    ......


    Players take ultimates for dungeons because of the buffs they give. Not because of movement speed aligning with spin. Even before that update ultimate's would still be a core class in the eyes of the community due to the update requiring to take an ultimate into dungeons so you have their buffs.


    Attack speed only is supreme because it's the most time efficient method, but every class is still capable of doing PVE.


    Blame the community, not the game.

    Quote from Sirab

    Im not even going to be maining Ulti for long and most definitly not in 70 cap so nice try. I dont even look forward to 70 cap. Sounds like you're just crying because no one is taking your Fighter into parties, Fighters need a buff in PvE in general, just have to wait for it.


    Also Fighters arent as bad in PvE as they in 70 cap right now, sure you're prolly not going to be taken in by randoms but try to get known in the PvE community, prove yourself, build trust, and you will be whispered by PvE teams.

    Haha, I get you're baiting me back a little, but you have no idea. Don't worry about me, man, I just might be able to get a Grand Chef to beat CC150 if I really wanted. With options like THAT open to me, I doubt I need to worry much about my Fighter. :P

    Quote from emmanu500

    I could stupidly agree with you, but you should know that this would not change anything, the party speed will continue to opt for a buffers



    this is true I think you should leave this topic and continue with another, to suggest some change in humans in which they can serve in a party EchoSon

    Ooooh. I'm trying to banish buffers from speed parties by nerfing them? So THAT's what I was doing.....

    Let me give my suggestion straight to help you understand what I actually desire:

    Buffers should have the movement speed mechanic which increases their movement speed removed. In return, their spin should stack with Kaioken and be allowed to crit. This'll increase their damage and give them a reason to get crit gear. Before you say crit spins would be OP, no they wouldn't. A spin will always be just as good at farming even if it's 10 times as strong, all thanks to that pesky 5-second stun at the end, so it'll mainly help in dungeons. It'll have little effect on serious PvP where people equip anti-candy. People who didn't equip anti-candy were screwed even before this update.

    With this, buffers would be more capable in ANY party rather than be forced to rely on 1 party combination to unlock their true power. Meanwhile attack speed parties lose 1 extra advantage. They can also use Kaioken without losing their most valueable attack, which is really obnoxious as a buffer. So it's a win-win. If there are downsides, by all means tell me.


    Quote from Tempest

    Attack speed only is supreme because it's the most time efficient method, but every class is still capable of doing PVE.


    Blame the community, not the game.


    Players take ultimates for dungeons because of the buffs they give. Not because of movement speed aligning with spin. Even before that update ultimate's would still be a core class in the eyes of the community due to the update requiring to take an ultimate into dungeons so you have their buffs.

    Blame the community for taking the most blatantly efficient route? That's a natural human response, especially if the method is THAT much better.

    If the alternatives had ANY advantages to speed parties, like safety or time-efficiency or speed having a negative effect on AoE, people would consider it. But attack speed is safer, faster, and has no downsides. So yes, it's the game that's to blame, not the players. Developers attempt to balance their games for a reason, welcome to Earth. Wanna blame Fox and Sheik mains for choosing high-tier characters next?

    Also, what Kazuna suggested is that future speed parties may not need to take Turtles because Buffers can replace their AoE in speed parties, regardless of it being a buffer's primary purpose. I think she's wrong because Speed Restrain and attack speed from 35m range is too stupidly OP to pass up, but she has some points.

    Quote from EchoSon

    Ooooh. I'm trying to banish buffers from speed parties by nerfing them? So THAT's what I was doing.....

    no, the buffers will be in party speed with or without this system



    Quote from EchoSon

    Buffers should have the movement speed mechanic which increases their movement speed removed. In return, their spin should stack with Kaioken and be allowed to crit. This'll increase their damage and give them a reason to get crit gear. Before you say crit spins would be OP, no they wouldn't. A spin will always be just as good at farming even if it's 10 times as strong, all thanks to that pesky 5-second stun at the end, so it'll mainly help in dungeons. It'll have little effect on serious PvP where people equip anti-candy. People who didn't equip anti-candy were screwed even before this update.

    With this, buffers would be more capable in ANY party rather than be forced to rely on 1 party combination to unlock their true power. Meanw attack speed parties lose 1 extra advantage. They can also use Kaioken without losing their most valueable attack, which is really obnoxious as a buffer. So it's a win-win. If there are downsides, by all means tell me.


    Wow, really ? , with this system is fine, I do not think that giving them that balance is the right thing, since they would not need anyone to finish something. it seems good to me that the turn can do more damage with the buffs of karma and poko, I quote what he said Tempest

    so you understand how things work:!::/

    Quote from emmanu500

    no, the buffers will be in party speed with or without this system

    Yah. A buffer will always be in every single party no matter what because buffs are such a huge deal. That'll never change. It's also not the point, Poko+Karmas needing to be in every party is the point, and I want to see that combination nerfed because it's objectively the most powerful party combination in the game by far and it leaves little room for any other class to exist in PvE.

    "Speed parties + buffers will remain even if we change it" is not an excuse to continue doing objectively bad balancing. You don't buff Fox in Melee, why would you buff an attack speed party? We can change buffers to have a better spin WITHOUT specifically attack speed parties. There an infinite ways to do so. So what reason on earth can you or ANYONE give why it should be tied to the already OP-as-hell attack speed parties?

    You can't. Even something as dumb as letting you spin faster if you have the Plasma Majin's CD buff would've been better, because at least it'd encourage an underused class to be used.

    Quote from emmanu500

    Wow, really ? , with this system is fine, I do not think that giving them that balance is the right thing, since they would not need anyone to finish something. it seems good to me that the turn can do more damage with the buffs of karma and poko, I quote what he said

    Kaioken has the downside of draining LP, and it's not as OP as using speed parties + movement speed dogi & boots + movement speed potion even if you could crit 100% of the time. Crits deal 50% more damage IF you crit, while the speed party can go up to being 102% stronger than your default spin. So it's just a minor boost in comparison. Well...if we're going by Tempest 's standards of "minor". In my book, a minor boost would be a 10% damage increase, but the DBOG dev team doesn't do minor. You either go nuts or you go home in this team. Subtlety doesn't exist.

    Quote from emmanu500

    so you understand how things work:!::/

    Yes! Do you? Do you understand why Poko+Karmas are a problem? Have you played DBOG on a high-end scale? Check out this video.



    The issue isn't the Majin tearing through literally all of UD3's first floor solo in a single spin.(Okay, maybe that's an issue, but it's not my point or what I want to discuss) The issue is that you're forced to go with the already god-awfully OP attack speed parties to do this. The ultimate party bar-none that never needed a buff, especially after the DBOG team tried to take the "We're trying to encourage styles other than attack speed, gais :D" stance.

    the disadvantage of kaioken lp do not think it's a problem in the buffers, As for the video, it is something that could even be done with a turtle, obviously it would be slower, and I understand what you are trying to say, but hell are you giving buff and dmg to a single class without the need of anything and nobody, as well as a turttle needs a buff to make everything easier, a ultimate / cheff need other buffs to do it too easy


    emmm that speed buffs should not be deleted when they leave the instance????

  • The last reply was more than 365 days ago, this thread is most likely obsolete. It is recommended to create a new thread instead.

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