Let's talk Fighter Masterclass Skills!

  • Fighters are an insanely simple class. Simple to a fault, causing frustration to both the Fighter and whoever's fighting them in PvP. Lemme show what I mean; Here's how many options the Fighter masterclass gives you for PvP, that have any usefulness at all.

    Fighter.png
    Thunder and Swiftness have a 4 minute cooldown, and are only efficient with the right gear. If you don't use specific gear or wasted them earlier, that's 2 viable options. Otherwise 4.
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    Let's look at Swordsmen.
    Swordsmen.png
    Energy Swordsmen are screaming at me for calling their attacks useless, but let's say they ARE useless and a swordsman only gets 7 use-able options. Flash Slash is included for it's ability to thwart speed restrain at the start of battles and defense-ignoring-properties.
    ===========================

    Next, let's look at Turtles.
    Turtles.png
    Attack Speed shackle and Slow are perfectly good debuffs to use after putting an enemy to sleep. Physical/Energy Defense Boost are also viable to use too at that moment, and some will argue Turtle Rod Impale is great, but let's call those 5 skills useless and say a turtle only gains 9 options to use in PvP battles instead of 14.
    ===========================

    Next, let's look at the infamous Shadow Knights.
    ShadowKnight.png
    Some claim Deception and Cleave are useful sometimes, and Big Mouth Energy Wave is a fast attack you basically get for free, but we'll ignore them and say SKs gain 10 viable PvP options from their Master Class instead of 13.
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    Do you get the idea?

    You can say those Fighter skills are OP, but you'd miss the point. Fighters only gain 4 skills from their master class that have any purpose in PvP, one which may do nothing if you're unlucky, and the other being entirely counterable by anti-confuse or reflect gear(on tanks). Yes, needles are overpowered as hell when they crit, but how is a masterclass revolving entirely around 2 skills that are basically the same thing any fun? Fighters rely only on 2 needles to kill enemies assuming lady luck gives them crits. It SUCKS to get one/two-shot by some dude because he crit. It also sucks to feel like you don't deserve any of your victories in an equally-well geared fight, because you couldn't have won without crits and/or dodges. People love calling Fighters broken for a reason. They're statistically not, but it feels unfair on both sides.

    So let's make Fighters actually EXCITING. It's hype to watch Turtles and Swordsmen go at it. Let's do that for Fighters too! There have to be ways their skills could be changed to make them fun for both their players and opponents, without necessarily buffing/nerfing them too much. Here are my ideas, let me know if they're terrible.


    Disclaimer: This thread's about suggesting ways to make Fighters more fun to use/fight against. It's NOT a "NERF THIS CLASS/BUFF THAT CLASS" thread, please remain on-topic.


  • 213.png High Speed Needle

    -Crit Damage increase only applies if performed from behind-

    -Max damage lowered from 471% to 449%.


    216.png Super High Speed Needle

    -Crit damage increase only applies if performed from behind-

    -Max damage lowered from 628% to 597%.


    We want to encourage player skill by having positioning matter before blindly attacking. Since this skill is basically based of this moment anyway, I think it'd make sense. Damage is still huge when applied from behind(usually thanks to stun or surprise attack), just nerfed a little to encourage other tactics and make one-shots less common. If your enemy isn't stunned, all they need to do is not turn their back to you and they'll guaranteed avoid the crit-damage boost.


    216.png High Speed Needle(Alt Suggestion)

    -Remove it's crit damage boost-

    -Initial Damage is 249% physical damage at max level instead of 471%-
    -Deals 88% physical bleed damage every 2 seconds for 15 seconds-
    -Initial Damage is 204% at lvl1, 219% at lvl2, 233% at lvl3, and 249% at lvl4-
    -Bleed damage is 41% at lvl1, 52% at lvl2, 63% at lvl3, 88% at lvl4-

    This turns High Speed Needle back into a bleed like retail's lvl55 days, except now the bleed deals % damage so it scales properly with end-game. Think Bold Strike, except it deals 88% bleed damage instead of 279%. To explain my reasoning for the numbers....needle's 471% damage+crit boost is more like 950% instant damage. Since the 88% bleed hits every 2 seconds, and there's an initial damage of 249%, that's 865% damage total gradually dealt over a 15 second timeframe assuming your target's not using anti-bleed. Long-term DPS speaking it's even stronger when you don't crit, but the 15-second timeframe gives your enemy alot of time to fight back and opportunities to heal.

    That said, I vaguely recall bleed damage not getting reflected, so this presents an option against those lazy reflect tanks. :P



    210.png Blitz Fist

    -Gives 25 RP at lvl1, 50RP at lvl2, 75RP at lvl3, 100RP at lvl4-

    -other effects remain the same-


    When maxed, Blitz Fist now gives the player 1 extra RP ball. Blitz Fist is useless at end-game PvP due to Thunder easily making you reach the speed cap alone. Even in PvE it serves little purpose, speed parties and Thunder being able to replace it. This buff is mainly to open up RP options in PvP. It's a lengthy buffing animation and has too much cooldown to spam, so I can't imagine it being too overpowered.




    207.png Swiftness

    -Gives 3 seconds of guaranteed dodging.

    -3 minutes cooldown on lvl1, 4 seconds of guaranteed dodging at lvl2, 2 minutes cooldown at lvl3, 5 seconds of guaranteed dodging at lvl4, 1 minute cooldown at lvl5.
    -Stacks with Mighty Majin dodge buff since the two buffs no longer do the same thing-


    Instead of buffing DEX and dodge, this makes you invincible during your "buffing" animation. It's similar to a Swordsman's Scintillation, with some ups and downs. Upsides being that Fighters can use it at anytime without being buffed prior, and people can't counter you with Guard Break. Downsides are that you need better timing, it doesn't counter-knockdown your enemy, and that once the buff's over, it's over. You can't cancel your shield then try again, nor does it guarantee it'll stop anything if you mistime it or your enemy reads you like a book.


    The extra seconds at lvl2/4 make it so the buff outlasts the dodging animation, forcing the opponent to take distance while you're untouchable or face the consequences. Leveling it to lvl5 would let you use it every second round much like Quick Attack.



    214.png Solar Flare

    -Reduces hitrate and success rate by 60%.

    -Duration decreases from 10 to 8 seconds.


    Solar Flare is wasted potential. This is because alot of skills use success rate instead of hitrate, meaning all people need to do is just stun you or use specific attacks for a while to outlast it. Using it on groups of mobs means the time wasted using Solar Flare translates into more time taking damage, while classes other than you don't have the dodge rate to abuse a boss' reduced hitrate. Combine that with Solar Flare's short duration, awkward range and long cooldown, and it becomes SP better spend elsewhere. This would be a better-working version. Reduce the power and duration a little to make up for it's increased utility.


    214.png Solar Flare(alt suggestion)

    -Reduces hitrate and success rate by 100%-

    -Duration is 10 seconds at lvl4. The debuff's power drains with it's remaining duration. At 9 seconds, it decreases hitrate&success rate by 90%, at 5 seconds, 50%, at 1 second, 10%, etc-

    -Duration at lvl1 is 5 seconds, duration is 6 seconds at lvl2, 8 seconds at lvl3, and 10 seconds at lvl4-


    This is an alternative ideal version of Solar Flare that makes the most sense imo. Unfortunately, it may not be possible.



    208.png Glitz

    -Range increase from 25m to 35m-

    -Decreases physical attack by 10% at lvl1, 12% at lvl2, 15% at lvl3, 18% at lvl4, 20% at lvl5-

    -Replace existing dodge rate numbers with resist rate-


    Glitz is only somewhat relevant at lvl32~45. By endgame it's a laughable SP drain. Decreasing resist rate would help alot in PvE parties, and makes the debuff less redundant since Martial Artists have Shake, a far better dodge-decrease debuff. Increasing it's range means you can cast it before someone can land Quick Attack at a match' start, decreasing your odds of getting combod to death before you can retaliate. Martial Artist battles could go on a bit longer this way. The debuff would still not be that powerful, unlike Glaring Slash, but it'd have its uses at least.


    386.png Kamikaze Ghost

    -Self-destruct deals knockdown-

    -Autoattack is added back-

    -Cooldown increases from 24 seconds to 3 minutes-


    The self-destruct deals knockdown to compensate for it's trash damage. It'll save you some time when you're in trouble. Could make for very creative strategies to save a Fighter from a pickle, but can backfire if confuse is cast on the ghost, making it possibly knock YOU down instead. It's autoattack option also returns to help lure enemies in PvE, like in later versions of retail.


    387.png Thunder

    -Useable while Super Saiyan-

    -Inflicts debuff if used as Super Saiyan. Debuff lowers physical attack, movement speed, and attack speed by 20%-
    -Everything else is unchanged-


    It's obnoxious you can't use this as SSJ because it'd be "too OP". Inflict a debuff that negates SSJ's stats while this is active, problem solved. It's Thunder without SSJ powering it up further.


    385.png Storm

    -Usable while Super Saiyan(Like Thunder)-

    -100% Inflicts confuse for 1 second at lvl1, 2 seconds at lvl2, 3 seconds at lvl3, 4 seconds at lvl4-
    -State Damage and cooldown remains the same-


    I dislike both infinite stuns and "chance to succeed" RNG. This time, the skill confuses 100% so long as your attack connects. Even 1 second of confuse will be enough to disrupt your opponent's skills. Storm's at lvl4 now would technically still be an infinite stun if you have cooldown and your enemy has no anti-confuse. That said, even the smallest piece of anti-confuse takes that advantage away, making it more of a disruption/time-saving move rather than stun-city.



    215.png Final Flash

    -Range Increase from 35m to 45m-

    -Damage increase 1.5x when hitting from the front instead of 1.5x when a critical hit is successful-
    -Damage is the same-


    The extra range would open up new options in PvE and makes perfect sense for Final Flash, while the "from front 1.5 damage increase" makes aggroing a valid choice rather than just always using it as surprise attack. This is because luring mobs makes them face towards you. As it is now, most people would skip Final Flash if they could in order to get Big Bang. It needs to have a bit more utility and a different strategy from Big Bang. Maximum damage remains the same; AoE energy attacks are meant as utility for Martial Artists, we shouldn't replace Turtles.


    219.png Ki Burst

    -Replace "EP cost %" with "Energy"-


    Most of a Fighter's EP is expended from dashing around and transformations, neither which are affected by EP cost%. I guarantee most players who got this skill did so hoping to counteract SSJ's drain. Might as well give 'em Energy instead. PvP-wise it's almost the same, and in the rare cases a Fighter runs out of EP in PvP, there's always EP pots, and EP-autopots.

    Edited 2 times, last by EchoSon: 1: Added an alt needle suggestion: 2: Fixed the skill pics ().

  • as a fighter myself i agree with you. Everyone saying fighter is retarded simple and it kinda implies that so is the person playing it but we just like fighter and we have no other choice. everyone complaining that fighters with full dex are op and retarded rng but hey dex is way beter than props on accs so what would you do ? Now about the skills i really like the idea of the blitz fist being able to give you rp. This would actually open posibilities of knockdown.Also Glitz right now the only usefullness of the skill is that i lure mobs with it nothing more even maxed it gives -238 dodge and -87 phys attack .. i mean wtf it requiers so many points to do nothing ? this is not even a debuff lol meanwhile turtle has SLOW that decreased dodge by 203 and def by 469 and it only needs 3 points compared to 5? range is the same and cooldown ratio is altmost the same both come closer to 1.Ki burst i've tried it uh 41% lower ep costs sounds good but it actually does nothing because as you mentioned i always need to sit down from the drain of ssj/kaio not from using skills 1 after another.Giving some ep would be nice especialy since it need 5 points and for Final Flash i suggest a little bit lower cast time ? cuz i really think is a bit too long being 3 seconds all the time. Swiftness right now has no use period .No use pve because of the high cooldown ,long duration,and no use pvp because of the cast time and other buffs being way more important to cast like spirited roar or ultimate roar.Your suggestion sound interesting and it would require some good timing so i kinda like it basing a skill on the actual capacity of a player to time certain skills rather than the points invested in it. Thumbs up i hope atleast some of your suggestion are being implemented.Still dont rise your hopes to much this kind of change actually requiers real work and real testing not just changing numbers just like until now.

  • what about other skills like super and giant kamehameha will it make more damage if critical from behind ?

  • I very much like that you have taken time to give imagery, and give an idea of what you are trying to get across. Definitely a well thought out plan. I myself have never played fighter, but I have been really thinking about creating one. This definitely gives me some interesting insight on the class regardless on if it is a suggestion.

  • Just bring back fighter bleed, like 80% of vets want it back, and no one likes 1 shots anyway, but the reason they are acceptable for now is because how else would a fighter defeat SK or Ultimate without thunder? Increase the bleed duration to 16 seconds for HSN, 18 seconds for SHSN, and decrease the bleed dmg by a bit for balance. Otherwise it looks decent.

  • I very much like that you have taken time to give imagery, and give an idea of what you are trying to get across. Definitely a well thought out plan. I myself have never played fighter, but I have been really thinking about creating one. This definitely gives me some interesting insight on the class regardless on if it is a suggestion.

    Really? Fighters are pretty fun to play but hard to level it up.

    WlNycpi.png

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    Master

    11_small.png Beka - 60
    14_small.png Sanek - 60

    21_small.png Espeon - 60
    22_small.png Slushy - 52

    Discord: Beka#0069

  • Really? Fighters are pretty fun to play but hard to level it up.

    Yeah I remember playing Crane, Swordsman, and Turtle, but every time I would go to make a fighter my friend would be like ehh they are not great. I thought him being a main of the class was being truthful. Normally though I main Plasma Majin.

  • Ooh. I used to main as Swordsman in PoB. but then.. It's so bad for PvE but good for PvP, so I realized that I needed a fighter or turtle classes for PvE. but now I'm planning to main Fighter, Karma, SK, Dende and buffer.

    WlNycpi.png

    JE8Eyc0.png

    Master

    11_small.png Beka - 60
    14_small.png Sanek - 60

    21_small.png Espeon - 60
    22_small.png Slushy - 52

    Discord: Beka#0069

  • Ooh. I used to main as Swordsman in PoB. but then.. It's so bad for PvE but good for PvP, so I realized that I needed a fighter or turtle classes for PvE. but now I'm planning to main Fighter, Karma, SK, Dende and buffer.

    I will definitely give Fighter a chance after I get my Majin to a decent level. Maybe you could offer me some tips on the class even.

  • I will definitely give Fighter a chance after I get my Majin to a decent level. Maybe you could offer me some tips on the class even.

    I'll be happy to help! Santo gave me tips for fighters, too. I learned more as I used the skills. but I was a speed fighter. I know a little hybrid fighter.

    WlNycpi.png

    JE8Eyc0.png

    Master

    11_small.png Beka - 60
    14_small.png Sanek - 60

    21_small.png Espeon - 60
    22_small.png Slushy - 52

    Discord: Beka#0069

  • 5s of 100% guarantee dodge that's A LOT on PvP, enough to make Fighter soo OP.

    Solar flare and people wont stun you.

    I won't mind other things.


    Qucik Attack -> Solar Flare -> Kidney Shoot -> Needle -> Dodge -> Needle

    or something different.

    rIV1ISX.png

    nhGXYA9.pngTummi

    Edited 2 times, last by Tummi ().

  • what about other skills like super and giant kamehameha will it make more damage if critical from behind ?

    The crit boosts would remain the same for every skill, including the needles. The only difference is that you'd have to use the needle from behind for it to get said crit boost. Attacks like Super Kamehameha and Big Bang Attack would still get their crit boost no matter what angle they're used from.

    wait so is super ghost actually good?

    Nope. It deals garbage damage and can't even auto-attack like in retail. My suggestion's just that, a suggestion to give it's existence a purpose. XD

    instant Transmission can be used in PVP it makes you immune for like 3 sec but you can only auto attack during that time. so i think it is so good for speed fighters.

    I feel like Instant Transmission would be REALLY overpowered against spiritualists and dragon clans. A huge part of Martial Artists is that they're deadly at close range, so most classes want to stay far away from them. We have Quick Attack to close the gap, but that's once-every-two-rounds for good reason. I don't think there's a way to balance IT for PvP....ESPECIALLY not if we give it free invincibility frames too. XD


    5s of 100% guarantee dodge that's A LOT on PvP, enough to make Fighter soo OP.

    Solar flare and people wont stun you.

    I think you misunderstood the skill a bit.

    The guaranteed dodge buff activates the instant you do your swiftness animation. During that lengthy animation, you cannot move. By the time you CAN attack again, the 3 seconds would've passed over. Of course at lvl5 you have 2 extra seconds of invincibility AFTER that where you can actually attack, but your opponent should've had a chance to react and take distance by then. If they didn't and they're still up in your face, well....of COURSE they deserve to get punished hard. This skill encourages dynamic fights where you're chasing your opponent across the arena.

    Also, Solar Flare doesn't affect success rate right now. So that's the perfect time when people DO want to use stuns, bleeds, etc, since those attacks bypass hitrate. That's why I didn't count Solar Flare as one of the Fighter's PvP viable moves. It's too easy to get around those 10 seconds. Just use success rate moves.


    Just bring back fighter bleed, like 80% of vets want it back, and no one likes 1 shots anyway, but the reason they are acceptable for now is because how else would a fighter defeat SK or Ultimate without thunder? Increase the bleed duration to 16 seconds for HSN, 18 seconds for SHSN, and decrease the bleed dmg by a bit for balance. Otherwise it looks decent.

    You're pulling that 80% from your nose. Fighters were horrible back when they had bleed and no speed. Even speed isn't that useful on a Fighter now. Try comparing crit strategies and speed strategies on a boss and you'll see what I mean. The speed cap is too low for Fighters for them to deal the damage they did in retail. Spamming needles(use cooldown RP preferably) with crit gear deals more damage. The main reason to use Thunder now is for it's overpowered stunlock.(Until someone brings anti-confuse or reflect gear, in which case that goes out of the window too)

    Anyway, you miss the point. This isn't about buffing or nerfing Fighters. It's about fun. If we brought back bleed, it'd STILL be all about the needles and RNG dodges, and that's just no fun for either party. Instead of having 3 super-overpowered skills, let's just nerf them a bit and make their other skills more competent so we can have a whole array of options like other classes do.