(Ignore my suggest use badpiccolos )Karma needs a nerf enough is enough

Quote from Syren

Simple counter is target self.. Once you are confused untarget the opponent and you wont move with him.

oh lol good to know

Quote from Cashalot

i think a better solution would be to increase the capped resistance % maximum from accoires.

Current is 60% maximum, i think making it 110-120% would be better.

This will give players a chance to build for resistance wich would be actually effective, giving them a good chance to resist hesistation from Karma, and armpull from Shadowknight.

There was a reason it was capped and that was because everyone apart from fighters and ultimas were pissed to the end...

Just a few examples:
% resistance items balance suggestion

a few things happened then:

Most of budokai solo rounds were with fighters. The rest, as allways, were mostly SK

the first full resist ulti won solo budokai

fighters didn't decide between prop or dex build anymore but were complaining that they can't take dmg if they get hit once

full dex fighters resisted even more than ultis

there were tales of turtles/cranes wearing focus who actually hit the targed while making it to survive long enough

the only hope was that it will change with kraken/cell rings and that in open beta there won't be everyone running in full +15 (we all know today how that worked...)

Quote from Cashalot

Also, nerfing a classes skills into the ground, isnt always the best way to move forward.

This, wanted nerfs are in no relation in the discussions here compared to buffs for the handicapped classes.

The game is unbalanced to a frustrating lvl where it also might help to stop focusing on one class and trying to find a complete, radical, overall solution.

I doubt tho that it will ever happen because the one thing that dbog and the ppl involved in balancing lacks (and I am not better to a certain degree) is objectivness.

Quote from oEffy

There was a reason it was capped and that was because everyone apart from fighters and ultimas were pissed to the end...

Just a few examples:
% resistance items balance suggestion

a few things happened then:

Most of budokai solo rounds were with fighters. The rest, as allways, were mostly SK

the first full resist ulti won solo budokai

fighters didn't decide between prop or dex build anymore but were complaining that they can't take dmg if they get hit once

full dex fighters resisted even more than ultis

there were tales of turtles/cranes wearing focus who actually hit the targed while making it to survive long enough

the only hope was that it will change with kraken/cell rings and that in open beta there won't be everyone running in full +15 (we all know today how that worked...)

This, wanted nerfs are in no relation in the discussions here compared to buffs for the handicapped classes.

The game is unbalanced to a frustrating lvl where it also might help to stop focusing on one class and trying to find a complete, radical, overall solution.

I doubt tho that it will ever happen because the one thing that dbog and the ppl involved in balancing lacks (and I am not better to a certain degree) is objectivness.

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thats why im saying 110-120% as a new possible cap instead of uncapped like it was before.

Before it was 60%+60%+54%+54% , thats too much.

60% is too little, karmas and SK will still land many debuffs even if u go full resist mode.

This is why im in favor of trying out 110-120% personally.

But you can also just nerf some skills big time, like life drain, armpull, confusion, hesistation.

But i think my suggestion for raising it a little too 110-120% , is good.

It wont be like that time in pob, yet resist will happen more often then it does now for many classes.

so what makes you think 60% is the best cap?

the game will never get balance because people will complain about their favorite class getting nerfed and force buffs for their own class & their personal agenda shit happen multiple times in Pre Open beta) another example is sitting right in this thread which is a nerf KARMA thread and you got people like cashalot talking about buffing resistance rate which ultimates would HEAVILY benefit from, oh yeah btw dude also MAINS an Ultimate and this is not the first time he has done like something this either like wdf, buffing resistance create more problem overall. I think badpiccolo idea is way better idea. but the whole resistance success rate system is fcking wonking and should never be even discuss in nerf karma thread

add skill charge time 1 second/1.5 second

fixed thanks

Quote from Bad Picollo

Your karma nerf will hit plasma and make her even less playable.

My suggestion:

Hesitation - Add cast time 2 sec.

Hesitation - add cast time 1 sec.

Playfull doll - Add 150 hp cost every 2 sec when skill is used by the user.

playfull doll max skill duration is 35 sec

35:2=17,5x150hp=2625hp

So karma will lose 2625hp in total for using playfull doll for 35sec.

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I think your suggestions are pretty neat, it'd definitely make PvP Karma a bit more interesting(However it'll only cause good Karmas to change their strategy slightly tbh). I'm curious to hear why, and how you think this will balance Karma?

Usually Karmas will shout > Stun, but if you add cast time to their stun/skill lock it'll force them to use confusion. Well actually depending on their ping they might be able to land the stun just in time, before their opponent can cancel their cast time. Which makes me question what you're trying to go for with these changes, can you really change their CCs in a way that balances them without killing them? Karmas are entirely reliant on their CCs in order to win, if you nerf it too badly they can't win. But if the nerf is insignificant, then skilled Karmas will win the match regardless.

I suppose after a while of using the same CCs repeatedly the duration will have been lowered to the point where the cast time is just too long for them to land it in time. Realistically these changes would only help tanks stand a slightly better chance, as they're the only ones capable of tanking Karma long enough for their CCs to lose enough duration to give them time to counter attack.

When you take items such as autopots, and Senzu beans into consideration, I'd say these changes would affect Karma the most in ranked battle. However it'd nearly no effect on them in Budokai, because there they'll have no reason to hold back their LP recovery items. And usually Karmas(Well it should probably be singular since the only skilled and well equipped Karma who wins budokai is Flundaa) who do make it past preliminary know how to rotate around their CCs effectively to make up for the cast time on stun/Skill lock.

Don't get me wrong I find these changes interesting, and much more constructive then what most people on the Forum suggest. But I lack the insight on how this will give the classes that struggle against Karma a chance to fight back against them. Tanks on the other hand are not one of the classes that struggle against Karma, I'd say(Ultimate, SK, etc). Hopefully this reply isn't too long for you.

Quote from ExaltedGeico

I think your suggestions are pretty neat, it'd definitely make PvP Karma a bit more interesting(However it'll only cause good Karmas to change their strategy slightly tbh). I'm curious to hear why, and how you think this will balance Karma?

Every next use of shout or double whammy ball have less duration with every

next use and these two skills wont guarantee anymore successful drop of lock/stun so here will be more pression on karma players, look at turtle or crane first they try paralize you with slow+skill or kd then sleep, karma lock is updated version of sleep and she just dorping it like is nothing and this is main weapon of karma you turn your opponent into punching bag for 23sec, actualy here is no holes in karma combo for most of classes, even after all the changes karma will still control the fight from the start but now here will be at least some holes that will give you chance for win, karma because of her high control features and high def losing not much hp and even if you will get her, here is not much chance that you will kill her for one combo thats why karma should pay with life for using doll skill, this skill is mainly used for get time in wait for other skill cd.

Lets be also clean that karma is easy class to play like some ppl think and one mistake making you lose, because some ppl like Jorge A. Tellez think that if you play karma or sk you can win budokai easy.

Quote from Box-head(boxbox)

easy to say for u ur a tank. try other classes and you will see im right.

I play poko, ultimate, crane and sword.

i can tell yea duration and stackablitly of hesitation is a huge problem. and the spamability of shout is rediculous. against any dps class karma shits on them other than fighter due to resistance.

I know, I played other classes, I had fighter and SM and karma would be handled with dex + resistance, same for crane.

Like I said, if dmg is edited for karma, with good gear you shouldn't take too much dmg from karma.

Quote from Bad Picollo

Your karma nerf will hit plasma and make her even less playable.

My suggestion:

Hesitation - Add cast time 2 sec.

Hesitation - add cast time 1 sec.

Playfull doll - Add 150 hp cost every 2 sec when skill is used by the user.

playfull doll max skill duration is 35 sec

35:2=17,5x150hp=2625hp

So karma will lose 2625hp in total for using playfull doll for 35sec.

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Yeah, I think this would be better than what I suggested, and ofc, dmg from back reduced or removed from karma.

Still playful doll, shouldn't be touched, if Karma moves or use any other skill, confusion should be canceled.

Quote from Cashalot

i think a better solution would be to increase the capped resistance % maximum from accoires.

Current is 60% maximum, i think making it 110-120% would be better.

This will give players a chance to build for resistance wich would be actually effective, giving them a good chance to resist hesistation from Karma, and armpull from Shadowknight.

Nah, resistance is fine as it is.

When I was MOD, we were testing resistance for days until we got this, any more change, it would break balance of classes even more.

Want more resistance, wear dex + resistance rate + % resistance.

Sacrifice something to gain something.

Quote from Bad Picollo

Every next use of shout or double whammy ball have less duration with every

next use and these two skills wont guarantee anymore successful drop of lock/stun so here will be more pression on karma players, look at turtle or crane first they try paralize you with slow+skill or kd then sleep, karma lock is updated version of sleep and she just dorping it like is nothing and this is main weapon of karma you turn your opponent into punching bag for 23sec, actualy here is no holes in karma combo for most of classes, even after all the changes karma will still control the fight from the start but now here will be at least some holes that will give you chance for win, karma because of her high control features and high def losing not much hp and even if you will get her, here is not much chance that you will kill her for one combo thats why karma should pay with life for using doll skill, this skill is mainly used for get time in wait for other skill cd.

Lets be also clean that karma is easy class to play like some ppl think and one mistake making you lose, because some ppl like Jorge A. Tellez think that if you play karma or sk you can win budokai easy.

Well then I suppose I guessed right. This change is pretty good, since if you can survive long enough for the duration to have decreased to the point where you can counter attack during the time the Karma is casting their CC. Keyword "can", only tanks can tank Karma long enough for their CCs duration to be low enough to counter attack during the cast time. Anyone else who isn't full props will just get one shotted by Homing Storm from behind. The Karma can literally wait for the last couple of seconds for Skill lock, and use Confusion duration RP > homing storm. If you're wearing anti confusion there's not enough time to change to props in order to tank the attack, and if you're wearing props well now you gotta deal with roughly half a minute of confusion. During that time they can easily lower your health to roughly 35-50% and kill you with a critical to prevent your autopot from going off.

Realistically all you're doing is making it impossible for Karmas to defeat SKs, thus raising SK's viability. If what you're trying to do is give Turtle, Crane, Pokos, etc a fighting chance against Karma this is not the way to do it.

The reason why I found the change to Play doll so intriguing is because it doesn't affect Karma what so ever. 2.6k lp is nothing, and if you increase it to something like 8k or more you'd be killing off one of their CCs. I personally think Play doll is fine because unless your opponent was stunned before hand if you use Play doll they will aggro on you and waste it.

I agree Karma is a relatively easy class to play, but regardless of which class it is there will always be horrifyingly bad players. I've seen players who're are unimaginably terrible at the game, I guess they just weren't meant to be good. Take a Retail turtle named "GigaST" for example, he's played since the level 55 cap, he hit level 70 and doesn't know how to play the game better than some newbie who's been around for 2 weeks. It's players like GigaST that have shown me that just knowing how to rotate between your skills is enough to make you "good".

Normally if those Fighters just rushed him that'd be the end of his "peculiar strategy". In the first round it looks flawless, but in the second round when he had literally an entire hotbar's worth of skills to use while his sleep was on CD. But instead he just kept jamming his keyboard trying to put his target to sleep. There are plenty of other examples of terrible players, but that's besides the point. Moral of the story no matter how easy a class looks in comparison to others, it still requires skill no matter what it is.

Quote from Box-head(boxbox)

easy to say for u ur a tank. try other classes and you will see im right.

I play poko, ultimate, crane and sword.

i can tell yea duration and stackablitly of hesitation is a huge problem. and the spamability of shout is rediculous. against any dps class karma shits on them other than fighter due to resistance.

This is so true even if you have full +15 armour on a human other than a fighter, you will have no chance against a karma, the karma does not even need to try to kill you, if the karma is good at playing karma he will just spam skill lock, hesitation and KD you out of the arena or straight up kill you from behind.

Even if you have all the right accessories, you can't counter skill lock or hesitation unless you are a tank.

Quote from Box-head(boxbox)

it seems many are in agreement about the suggested karma nerfs that badpicollo suggested hopefully Daneos and Staff will see this as a way to go.

at the very least try it instead of just saying no

I disagreed, I even explained why it's won't get anything done. Unless you think making it impossible for Karma to beat tanks is a good way to help non-tank classes fight Karma, lol.

Quote from ExaltedGeico

I disagreed, I even explained why it's won't get anything done. Unless you think making it impossible for Karma to beat tanks is a good way to help non-tank classes fight Karma, lol.

tanky classes killing karmas/fighters/swords mainly by reflect and debuffs you cant fix everything with one nerf for sure.

Rather than suggest nerfs for a single class, why don't we start coming up with buffs for classes that'd actually help them stand a chance against higher tier classes?

Another thing, resist% cap on accessories and attack speed cap should differ per class. For example classes such as Crane/Turtle Hermit should be allowed to use 112% resistance increase, and Fighter's attack speed cap should be lower than 100ms so players are given an incentive to bring them allow. That's kind of the motto Daneos has been going with, for example in order to make players take Ultimate Majins in their party he made it so that you can't enter dungeons with their buffs. But so that parties aren't weakened significantly due to having a Ulti/Chef in their party he buffed spin so it'd do a nice amount of AoE DPS easily allowing them to replace a Turtle.

So far buffing has worked a lot more effectively in DBO in terms of balancing than nerfing. He Buffed spin, thus Ultimate Majins are a good class to tank in PvE parties. He nerfed props, and we all know how happy the community was about that change. The only problem I see with changes that apply to specific classes is that I don't know if Daneos can do it. When he buffed the backstab damage bonus, when it was meant to buff Swordsmen. It affected every single backstab move in the entire game. Now Karma's damage is so ridiculous to the point where Dendes are being killed off before getting the chance to use autopot/LP recovery items.

Quote from ExaltedGeico

Rather than suggest nerfs for a single class, why don't we start coming up with buffs for classes that'd actually help them stand a chance against higher tier classes?

Another thing, resist% cap on accessories and attack speed cap should differ per class. For example classes such as Crane/Turtle Hermit should be allowed to use 112% resistance increase, and Fighter's attack speed cap should be lower than 100ms so players are given an incentive to bring them allow. That's kind of the motto Daneos has been going with, for example in order to make players take Ultimate Majins in their party he made it so that you can't enter dungeons with their buffs. But so that parties aren't weakened significantly due to having a Ulti/Chef in their party he buffed spin so it'd do a nice amount of AoE DPS easily allowing them to replace a Turtle.

So far buffing has worked a lot more effectively in DBO in terms of balancing than nerfing. He Buffed spin, thus Ultimate Majins are a good class to tank in PvE parties. He nerfed props, and we all know how happy the community was about that change. The only problem I see with changes that apply to specific classes is that I don't know if Daneos can do it. When he buffed the backstab damage bonus, when it was meant to buff Swordsmen. It affected every single backstab move in the entire game. Now Karma's damage is so ridiculous to the point where Dendes are being killed off before getting the chance to use autopot/LP recovery items.

That is why he shouldn't take shortcuts, he needs to edit skills, one by one.

Still, like I said before, raising resistance rate would be bad idea, I mean, wait for 70 cap, use resistance + dex turtle and crane and you will resist af, heck, you might even dodge.